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Binding Help
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Author:  POPS [ Wed May 07, 2014 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Binding Help
I have been building guitars for about 12 years, about 1 guitar per year. The guitars are OK but not perfect. Now after 2 years of not building, I have started again. For some reason I can no longer get a good binding installation. I have a Williams binding jig and get good channels. I bend with an electric blanket on a Fox bender, but I cannot get a good installation. I get gaps and a poor fit. Please review your techniques for me. I tend to use super glue but am open to anything. The waist is the major problem.

Thanks
Author:  Nick Royle [ Wed May 07, 2014 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Much more knowledgeable people than I will answer but I found that strapping tape improved my binding installation no end!
Author:  Goat Rock Ukulele [ Thu May 08, 2014 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I use CA. I tape lightly then wrap the instrument with shock cord. As I wrap the cord I pull the tape off. Tape and CA don't mix. Then I just wick with CA. I find CA is much better than red cap aliphatic. If you miss removing a small area of aliphatic resin glue it looks horrible. I don't have that problem with CA.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Thu May 08, 2014 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I use tape and CA but I agree, the CA doesn't mix that well with tape. I'm interested in the shock cord. Mike, what kind of cord do you use? Nylon?

The only thing I would add is I go over the channels very carefully after routing and before gluing. I use a small piece of binding with purfling strip glued to it. When I find a spot that isn't fitting that well I use a chisel or razor blade to make it right. Then I dry fit the binding and tape in place. I fix any problem areas before I start with the CA. They generally come out pretty good with only small areas needing attention after glue up.

I can find a cord that won't stick to the CA that would allow me to really pull it in where needed.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu May 08, 2014 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Are you "relieving" the lower inside edge of the binding?
I usually scrape/sand them.
That helps, especially at the waist, where the ledges are slightly off square due to the small radiius reverse curvature.
Author:  warmong [ Thu May 08, 2014 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I use HHG for bindings. Since HHG shrinks while it dries it tends to pull the bindings in. Apply glue with a brush, rope it in, reheat with a hot air blower so the glue flows a bit , then apply pressure with the tip of a hammer, both on the top and on the side. I do this in sections of approximately 10-15cm.
I use rope to secure the bindings while glueing. No nylon, since it doesn't stretch, but a cotton rope, preferably without a core.
I also relieve the inner corner of the binding with a scraper.
Obviously, a good fit of the bent binding is important.
good luck.
Author:  Trevor Gore [ Thu May 08, 2014 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Relieve the inner corner of the binding (knock the corner off with a scraper), bend accurately, start gluing at the waist and move out.

The more doming you have on the top/back panel, the harder it gets because you have to pull in the curve in the "vertical" plane, too. Most of my steel strings are Venetian cutaways with a 3 metre (10 foot) back dome radius. I glue with Titebond and just tape up with glass filament packaging tape. It helps to break the corner on the outer edge of the binding too, so that edge doesn't act as a tape cutter.

I bend the bindings on a hot pipe, then tape them on pretty tightly whilst still hot and pliable. The force required to make them fit when cold and ready to glue is then much reduced. Thinner bindings are easier to fit because they are more flexible. Remember it's a cube rule, so 10% thinner is nearly 30% less stiff.

Do all the above well and you shouldn't have any gaps. In the unlikely event that you do have a small gap or two ( ;)) iron them shut. Dampen a paper towel, heat the binding through the damp towel until the binding is soft (at which point the glue will be soft) then tape or clamp the gap closed. If you use CA glue, ironing doesn't work.
Author:  Goat Rock Ukulele [ Thu May 08, 2014 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Joe Beaver wrote:
I use tape and CA but I agree, the CA doesn't mix that well with tape. I'm interested in the shock cord. Mike, what kind of cord do you use? Nylon?


For my ukuleles I use 1/8" shock cord. For guitars I would use 3/16" shock cord. I bought mine on ebay in a 100' roll. For a guitar you might need 200'.
Author:  POPS [ Sat May 10, 2014 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Thanks everyone. Today I rebound a guitar. The channels were checked with a piece of binding before installing the bindings. I used filament tape, relieved the edge of the binding, and I taped one side while it was still warm. Love the tape. I believe the warm side was easier to fit. It appears that the binding is slightly thicker at the waist with a tiny overhang of the binding relative to the side. I wish I had thought to measure the binding at various places before installing it. Has anyone else had this experience? Does the bending compress the inside of the radius of binding and cause it to thicken? Oh, No Gaps!

Thanks again
Author:  Ken Lewis [ Sun May 11, 2014 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
"It appears that the binding is slightly thicker at the waist with a tiny overhang of the binding relative to the side."

Chances are that the rebates (binding channels) are narrow in this area, common problem. I get around this by routing the channels several times rotating the guitar between passes so that each waist area is on the close side to the router on one pass and the far side on the next pass. This way I'm making up for any slight error in leveling the guitar or alignment in the routing rig.
A search of previous posts will turn up lots of info on this very topic. Others handle it differently than I.
Ken
Author:  surveyor [ Sun May 11, 2014 11:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
Its all in the type of bending machine you use. If the "bend" doesn't work out, then the wood (walnut in this case) could add flovor to the ribs.

Surveyor
Author:  Hesh [ Sun May 11, 2014 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
POPS wrote:
Thanks everyone. Today I rebound a guitar. The channels were checked with a piece of binding before installing the bindings. I used filament tape, relieved the edge of the binding, and I taped one side while it was still warm. Love the tape. I believe the warm side was easier to fit. It appears that the binding is slightly thicker at the waist with a tiny overhang of the binding relative to the side. I wish I had thought to measure the binding at various places before installing it. Has anyone else had this experience? Does the bending compress the inside of the radius of binding and cause it to thicken? Oh, No Gaps!

Thanks again


I've noticed this too and my belief is that in some of the tighter bends bindings may indeed get a bit thicker. I remember using a caliper to see if what I think that I have observed is indeed accurate and sure enough the bindings that started at around .075" and were BRW in the waist was around .090" after bending them in a Fox bender. Not sure if it's compression or the added moisture in the bending process or both or something else but bindings do indeed seem to thicken at times in tighter bends.

Through the years my bindings have gotten thinner before bending with these days the target being around .060" and I find that it's easier to work with and keep in place with no gaps. I've also shortened my binding after developing a bit of a distaste for bindings such as what you will see on Heritage guitars - way too tall for my taste. With thinner binding being a bit easier to manipulate, shorter too and some nice purflings final thickness for bindings is rather moot.
Author:  weslewis [ Sun May 11, 2014 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I like to use thick ca...lots of tape and clamps for really tight spots...
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Sun May 11, 2014 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I use fish glue, tape and binding 0.070" or less. Any small gaps that might exist I gently heat up with a heat gun and press the binding into place, holding it for about 15 seconds while blowing it cool. Seems to work very well for me.
Author:  Goodin [ Mon May 12, 2014 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Binding Help
I think the key to having a good binding job is using a very sharp router bit, well prepared sides, and if using wood binding - accurately bent with no kinks. Like Hesh, I have also gone thinner with wood binding. This one I am on now I have the binding at .063". My last build I used the True Channel binding jig from Stew Mac and had excellent results. For gluing wood binding I use Titebond for the long open time. For celluloid binding I use Ducco cement.
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