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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:48 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I also use the technique of weighting the upper bout to get an idea what the neck will do under tension. My wife is an antique dealer and we have a ton of old irons lying around so I found two that weigh 5lbs each and that's what I use. I usually apply the weights and flatten the neck with the truss rod and level the frets.

Image

Another place where this technique helps is when fretting with a bolt on or double tenon neck. Level with the neck on the guitar, fret to say 9 or 10 and apply the weights. Bolt or clamp the extension to the top. Lets you have some idea of what the extension will do under tension and if there is any hint of a rise you can sand in some drop off and finish fretting. Not an issue with the supported extension which is looking better and better all the time.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:20 pm 
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What a jewel of a thread.

When mimic the effect of string tension by weighting the shoulders and supporting the nut, and level the frets with the neck bowed under that simulated tension, what is the effect on relief? The frets would be level while the neck is in relief, correct?



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:25 am 
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James Orr wrote:
What a jewel of a thread.

When mimic the effect of string tension by weighting the shoulders and supporting the nut, and level the frets with the neck bowed under that simulated tension, what is the effect on relief? The frets would be level while the neck is in relief, correct?

Terence says
Quote:
I usually apply the weights and flatten the neck with the truss rod and level the frets

So he is levelling the frets with the neck plane straight.
My limited experience using the weights (with 3 compression refrets) has been that after levelling frets dead flat with this method (the neck is backbowed before the weights are applied and the weights level it, ideally), when strung up with 12's (with no truss rod adjustment available) there was between 0.003-5" relief (treble side, I sand a bit more into the bass side) induced in the neck. This will vary with the stiffness of the neck.
In Terence's case, of course, he can adjust the relief with the rod.
When compression fretting, to adjust the relief you would have to refret again using different sized tangs.

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These users thanked the author Colin North for the post (total 2): James Orr (Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:53 pm) • Joe Beaver (Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:28 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:50 am 
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We use a slightly different approach to a traditional flush fretboard extension - we build to a 28' radius below the sound hole (x-brace, tone bars, fingers, and bridge plate, then radius the upper transverse brace to 60' radius and glue that in place on a flat caul. The approach gives consistent results for body lengths from Martin Size 5 to 12 fret-to-body D-sized guitars, as well as for the Grand Auditorium acoustic bass guitars built prior to my arrival here. This approach sets the neck angle prior to fretboard mounting by working backwards from desired string height at the saddle to the neck plane to body clearance value, as measured with a bare neck. I'll quote from the building guide discussion, which uses a medium sized guitar as an example:

Quote:
Start from desired string height and correct for the absence of strings, fretboard, frets, and for the distortion of the body due to string tension:

- Desired string height over top at saddle (string plane-to-top) distance = .500"

- String plane to fret-top plane distance at saddle = ~ .165" (scale length and action dependencies)

- Fret-top plane to fretboard-top plane distance at saddle = ~ .045" (range of .035 to > 0.050)

- Fretboard-top plane to neck plane at saddle = .250" (dependency on board taper)

So (desired string height at saddle) - (String plane to fret-top plane distance at saddle) - (Fret-top plane to fretboard-top plane distance at saddle) - (Fretboard-top plane to neck plane at saddle) = uncorrected height of neck plane at saddle = 0.040" for the example.

The degree of correction depends on a number of design elements, including string set used, scale length, body config (12 fret/14 fret), size of body, overall method to transfer string loads to body, back bracing config, etc., but is usually between about 0.030"-0.060". For medium-sized bodies such as 0 to 000 and Small Jumbos, .045" seems to work well (this value is closer to .060" for 0000 and D bodies), so:

Uncorrected height of neck plane at saddle + body distortion correction = corrected height of neck plane at saddle, or 0.040" - (-0.045") = 0.085"

For measuring the difference in heights at the saddle, a tool may be easily fabricated using a 24" section of 2" wide by 1/8" thickness plate aluminum and a dial gauge mount/dial gauge kit (see the Tools section for description, instructions and sources). An alternative to a purpose-built tool is a straight edge, offset blocks, and a ruler or string action and setup gauge.


This has developed into a fascinating thread!

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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post (total 2): James Orr (Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:57 pm) • Joe Beaver (Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:28 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Woodie,
I glad you revived this thread. As James Orr says, it is a jewel.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:45 pm 
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Maybe it is here in the thread and I missed it.... or maybe I'm not really comprehending what everyone is saying, but here is my quandary after looking at all this (and a puzzle I've struggled with for 2 builds)...
if the neck is set at a 1.5 angle and one glues on the fretboard flat on the neck then the fretboard also is at a 1.5 deg. angle.
The issue is that you get a Slope when you glue the fretboard down flat to the top....
How do I avoid this issue?
Here is a state of the art cad drawing to illustrate what I mean...
Image


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Actually its explained very well in several of the above reponses heres how Martin (and many others) do it

http://kennethmichaelguitars.com/neckfitpart1.html

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:32 pm 
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If it were me, to keep it simple, I would just add the thickness of the fingerboard and frets and extend the centre line to the top of the bridge.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:35 am 
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At this point, I am certain that the wealth of information presented here is both a bit overwhelming in volume and seemingly contradictory in nature...such is the reality of advice and guidance received without benefit of the ability of the tutor and tutored to be in the same shop. As has been said before, if this were simple and easy, everyone would build their own instruments!

In the interests of continuing to refine your neck fit, please be so kind as to take a few measurements for those on the thread seeking to assist you.

1. With the neck bolted into place, please measure the clearance at the saddle location between a straight edge resting on the neck (and parallel to the neck center line) and the top of the guitar.

2. With your fretboard clamped to the neck and the neck and fretboard on the guitar such that the fretboard extension is in contact with the top over the entire neck block to UTB area (there may be a gap at the top or bottom of heel - that is fine for now), again determine the clearance between a straight edge on top of the fretboard (and aligned with the center line) and the saddle location on the top.

3. Measure the thickness of the fretboard at the nut and 12th fret location.

Please advise us as to the values recorded...measurements in hundredths or thousandths of an inch or in tenths or hundredths of a millimeter would be most useful, with 64ths of an inch or 0.5 millimeter increments less accurate but still useful.

A photo of the extension area in condition 1 and 2 above would also be of potential use.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:54 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
Actually its explained very well in several of the above reponses heres how Martin (and many others) do it

http://kennethmichaelguitars.com/neckfitpart1.html


I understand how this can set the angle flat to the top ... but still struggle with how it eliminates the slop since the fretboard continues at that angle.

To the other post. I'll get these measurements and pictures asap. The last few days have been buildless :)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:16 pm 
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.. but still struggle with how it eliminates the slop since the fretboard continues at that angle.

Why would you want to eliminate the slope? The idea is to have the FB plane on a straight line to prevent a hump at the body junction and at the same time have the string plane float above the FB at a height allowing low action and proper distance so the bridge and saddle function as designed.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:17 pm 
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I'm unclear in my terminology. By the Slope I mean "a hump" sloping down after the fingerboard meets the body.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:45 pm 
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I think you need to do some serious review of this entire thread (especially the link I posted), most of which is pretty much explaining several methods of how you modify/sand the rim so the guitar upper bout has a slope that matches the angle formed by the neck heel and finger board extension.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:10 pm 
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kencierp wrote:
I think you need to do some serious review of this entire thread (especially the link I posted), most of which is pretty much explaining several methods of how you modify/sand the rim so the guitar upper bout has a slope that matches the angle formed by the neck heel and finger board extension.


I have reviewed it. To someone new it can still be confusing. For some of us it take time for some things to "sink in".
What I didn't grab from the thread was that you sand the soundboard to a gradual slope from the soundhole end of the FB to the neck to march the neck angle.
In my mind I was sanding level from where the board meets the top to where it terminates.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread.



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Not hi-jacked at all. This is something fewer people have a grasp on than we think.


Last edited by James Orr on Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Actually the slope is sanded on the rim before the sound board is attached -- however many do refine the fit with additional sanding after the top is in place.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:05 am 
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Koa
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kencierp wrote:
Actually the slope is sanded on the rim before the sound board is attached -- however many do refine the fit with additional sanding after the top is in place.


...or the approach detailed by Messrs. Cumpiano and Natelson may be used, or what is used in the shop where I work (28' radius on top rim, X, tone bars, and fingers, glued in 28' dish plus 60' radius UTB glued on flat). I am told that there are other approaches employed as well, and all of these yield a defined geometry which generates a proper fit for the extension and desired string height at the saddle.

If the builders seeking to understand the neck geometry issue would care to advise us on what methodology they employed to assure the fit of the extension, that might be useful, but with a closed and perhaps bound box in hand, the available options to materially address the neck angle seem limited to minor adjustments of the extension's fit on the top and (of last resort) a wedged filler piece under the fretboard extension. At this point in the building process, determining where the neck plane will reside and any adjustments to the extension and heel to assure a good fit would seem to be the appropriate goal...perhaps followed by a discussion of the relative merits of employing a particular construction method on the next instrument.

I have to thank Mr. Orr for his comments, and volunteer that neck and body geometry was quite troublesome for me, and evidence in the form of a number of new and reset factory and even custom instruments that have passed through this shop would suggest that even professionals can suffer from a lack of understanding. Factory-fresh instruments needing a reset, custom guitars with either excessively tall or barely there saddles, or factory-certified repair people delivering resets with only minor improvements on neck geometry are too common to suppose that a firm understanding of the process is universal.

Thanks to the gentlemen here - Dr. Kennedy and Messrs. Cierpilowski, Hall, & LeGeyt - for their tenacity and patience in advancing this discussion beyond the level of 'do this; not that' - very much appreciated!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:46 am 
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Woodie G wrote:
If the builders seeking to understand the neck geometry issue would care to advise us on what methodology they employed to assure the fit of the extension . . .

I have to thank Mr. Orr for his comments, and volunteer that neck and body geometry was quite troublesome for me, and evidence in the form of a number of new and reset factory and even custom instruments that have passed through this shop would suggest that even professionals can suffer from a lack of understanding.


I finished a guitar without a 1/32-ish gap at the neck/body joint for the first time two weeks ago, but won't feel comfortable saying I have a handle on it until I repeat the result. ;)

I used a 30' top radius and all of the braces had a 30' radius. I cut the tenon using LMI's neck jig, which cuts the geometry into the heel of the neck when you route it. You set the geometry by locking the angle in place when you have the desired gap over the saddle. I used a 3/16" drill bit taped in place over the saddle to set the gap. YouTube videos will help anyone make more sense of it if they're not familiar with the jig.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:10 am 
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James Orr wrote:
Woodie G wrote:
If the builders seeking to understand the neck geometry issue would care to advise us on what methodology they employed to assure the fit of the extension . . .

I have to thank Mr. Orr for his comments, and volunteer that neck and body geometry was quite troublesome for me, and evidence in the form of a number of new and reset factory and even custom instruments that have passed through this shop would suggest that even professionals can suffer from a lack of understanding.


I finished a guitar without a 1/32-ish gap at the neck/body joint for the first time two weeks ago, but won't feel comfortable saying I have a handle on it until I repeat the result. ;)

I used a 30' top radius and all of the braces had a 30' radius. I cut the tenon using LMI's neck jig, which cuts the geometry into the heel of the neck when you route it. You set the geometry by locking the angle in place when you have the desired gap over the saddle. I used a 3/16" drill bit taped in place over the saddle to set the gap. YouTube videos will help anyone make more sense of it if they're not familiar with the jig.


The neck jig is great to lock in the correct neck angle for the gap at the saddle, the trick is to then have the top of neck planer with the upper bout. If the upper bout does not have enough angle relative to the heel block there will be too much fall off so that you can not play past the body join, If the upper bout has too much angle there is a ski ramp limiting the ability to setup the guitar. I find I spend way more time getting the angle of the upper bout correct than the neck.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:42 am 
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We have a Woolson neck jig in the shop, and it works well for square heels like some Gibsons....other than trimming in the relief in the cheek, there's little work to do on fitting. For tapered heels, the greater the taper and the smaller the radius of curvature of the body in the neck area, the larger the error in milling the cheeks on the jig. The first time I milled a tapered heel on the jig, I thought I had miss-set the clearance pin, but after some hints from the boss, was able to understand why the neck angle was under-set. Because the error on a tapered heel & curved neck area always reduces the back angle, flossing the heel corrects both the angular error and the jig's inability to mill the curved path that the cheek describes in its intersection with the side - all without changing the body fret location..

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Last edited by Woodie G on Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:43 am 
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Ditto on the upper bout. Optimizing the upper bout angle is always a work in progress, at least for me. The main goal is to have a fretboard extension that is not rising and hopefully remains level or has a little drop off over the long haul.

Every neck attachment system and upper bout bracing pattern will have it's own unique behavior over time as far as settling in. You really don't know what yours will do until you see some of your guitars back after a few years. Obviously a floating supported extension won't have the same issues as one that is glued or bolted to the top but I am sure there are unique issues to deal with there as well.

Early on I switched to the Bourgeois style double tenon neck attachment as described by John Mayes and Sylvan Wells. I was quite happy with things until I began seeing my guitars back with more settling in than I had expected requiring little tweaks to the neck angle to optimize things like saddle height, and extension geometry.

This lead to discussions with other luthiers and changes to increase upper bout stability and alteration in the upper bout angle to try to improve long term alignment. (i.e a little more drop off initially) I am almost to 80 guitars now and things are a lot better but I'd say my upper bouts will probably always be in a state of mild evolution in the quest for optimal long term stability.

Point is with the information in this thread you can get optimal angles and alignment initially but that does not insure it will stay that way after a couple of years and it's important to watch what your guitars do over time and modify as needed.

I would venture to guess that beefing up support of the north end of the soundbox has been a pretty common evolution for many of the experienced builders here.

Woodie, a number of years back I could never figure out why my tapered heels didn't fit better on a curved upper bout off the neck jig. Your boss addressed that in a thread on this forum and I felt kind of stupid that I had not figured that out on my own. Once you know it's much easier to floss correctly. Tell him thanks from me.

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Last edited by Terence Kennedy on Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:11 pm 
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So here is a case. This is what I'm working on now. The neck area is flattened. The relief cut / sanded round the tennon. Then the neck into place.my issue appears to be that thee neck is forward leaning.
Therefore I'll need to strip sand some from the neck heal .

You can see in the picture that there is a tiny gap at first where the neck joins then the ruler hits the body around the sound hole. It's leaning forward.

This is a stewmac neck btw
Image
Image
Image
Image
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Oh. The rims were cut using the appropriate template and then sanded via radius disks before the box was assembled
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:19 pm 
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All this considered I understand it may be valuable to finish my fingerboard first to account for fret height. Correct?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:06 pm 
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SnowManSnow wrote:
All this considered I understand it may be valuable to finish my fingerboard first to account for fret height. Correct?


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I always leave my fingerboard at maximum finished dimension until installing it. I can always run it through the thickness sander to reduce it to get the perfect string height, but you can't make one thicker!
Mike


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