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| Cracked Coco side http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43767 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Cracked Coco side |
I bent 5 sets of coco today, and on the easiest bend, least amount of figure (or so I thought), I cracked one. The picture below is the unbent set. Note the figure lines in the sides, reference the lower bout at widest point, just above that. The break was clean. Not fractured. Like it was a knot line. I'll post a picture of that tomorrow. What do you all think? Bad technique or just bad luck. Or possibly a knot line? 
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Yep, that's a knot. Call Hibdon and see if they'll send you a replacement. Looks like a dicey set to me, and apparently it was a bad roll. I've bent wood with pin knots before, and usually the knot itself cracks, but the surrounding wood holds together. It tries to kink, but you can fight it, and fill the cracked knot with CA and sand it smooth. But in perfectly quartersawn wood like that, there's more knot than there is surrounding wood, and even that has extreme runout for most of the width. May have been possible by sanding it really thin, and getting the heat and moisture just right so it would take very little pressure. But definitely a tough bend. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Thanks Dennis. If u look to the left on the left side piece, there is a big hint. I hope Hibdon will make this good, but I'm not gonna whine if they don't. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
If I may contribute, I would have placed that "troublesome" section slightly above or below the waist rather than right on it. Or I would have flipped the sides so that section was closer to the tailblock. If you placed that section right on the waist, then I advise not holding Hibdon responsible for the crack as that was taking an unnecessary risk on your part due to the pattern placement. A big part of our job as builders is to evaluate a piece of wood and figure out how to get what we need out of it. If the knot cracked in the lower bout then I might be tempted to ask for a replacement. However, since you purchased 5 sets from them -- it definitely wouldn't hurt to see if they can help you out!!! |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
You know, u have a point. I consciously attempted to put that figure on the upper bout. However, I failed to assess it as a pin knot. Had I been alert enough to do that,I would have placed it on the lower bout. In retrospect, I did the wrong thing, and that is why I won't whine if they tell me to pound sand. Hey, 4 out of 5 bends went flawless, even with 4 cutaways. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
You should have seen some of the gnarly figure I was working with today! That little thing was low on my radar. A thread like this should serve to warn others to really take the time when assessing the bend. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Well, you have to be self-evaluative and honest with yourself -- having not bent the piece myself I can't say whether it would have held regardless of placement. IF you feel it would have given way regardless, then I wouldn't hesitate to see if they can send you a replacement. I just know that the tonewood business is not the easiest way to make money and I do appreciate the good folks that provide us with these wonderful sets. I mostly posted because it is very helpful to be thoughtful about placement when laying out the body location. I have been able to make many things work out due to careful placement -- otherwise, I might have gotten myself into trouble. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
I'm not looking for a freebie. I appreciate Hibdon. It may bear out however that it was a fatally flawed piece.  
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Btw, here is a side view showing how far I got. Not sure it would have survived a lower bout bend. Look at the successful bend picture. I was maybe 1 to 1.5 inches down on the Fox bender when it loudly cracked. (Upper bout). |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Btw, here is a side view showing how far I got. Not sure it would have survived a lower bout bend. Look at the successful bend picture. I was maybe 1 to 1.5 inches down on the Fox bender when it loudly cracked. (Upper bout).  
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Hey, let's focus on the positive! 4 bends went awesome. Look at the gnarly figure on the one below!  
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Oh, I thought by "easiest bend" that you meant it was in the lower bout. Tough call by the pictures... that's a pretty nasty crack, but cracking loudly sounds like it wasn't as brittle as I thought it might have been. And those do look pretty thick for such a dense wood, and the knot right in a high stress spot for Fox machine bending. I agree with Simon to use your own judgement, but from my perspective I'd say to just take the hit and pay for a new set. Might help remind you to pay more attention next time  Nice work on the rest, though! Keep us updated on the guitars as you make more progress on them ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Are they going to be quintuplets, or different top woods/bracing patterns/etc?
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
By easiest, I meant easiest of the 5, sides were thinned to 0.085. Pictures don't tell that story well. They were SS II soaked for 24 hours. They were all treated top notch. Yeah, I misread that one, and I don't mind buying another. Still, if you could see a close up of the side edge, you can clearly see a pin knot. It happens. Not complaining. |
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| Author: | Toonces [ Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
It's hard to say - I might see if they can give you a discount because the way that thing broke seems like it would have been problematic wherever it was. One thought -- this is why I really like using double sides. It takes some effort to create the jigs for the lamination process (especially if you have several different body shapes) but I KNOW that I could have bent that side however I wanted because I'm using double sides. When you drop the thickness down under 0.065" then this stuff usually bends incredibly well. If you picture yourself using exotics like Ebony, Ziricote, etc. with regularity then I do believe in the long run, you will save yourself money with the double side method. |
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| Author: | MikeyV [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
In my opinion, a side with a knot clear thru it should not be sawn up for sides, or included in a set that was surely over $300. IMHO. I've recieved a set or two that were NOT up to par from large suppliers. I recieved an expensive cocobolo set that was super thin (like 0.090") an warped like a Pringles potato chip. If I'm paying for wood that's billed as a guitar set, I expect it to be dry, relatively flat, knot and crack free and of sufficient thickness. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
After studying that piece, I'm convinced it is a knot. It only goes about halfway through. That is why the character of the crack changes. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Update: Hibdon is replacing the wood free of charge. Class act. Mike |
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| Author: | Heath Blair [ Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Class act indeed. |
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| Author: | Randolph [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Score one in my book for Hibdon! |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Cracked Coco side |
Yeah, they pretty much rock. Plan to do a zircote and black wood project with them next |
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