Steve , If you are just so overwhelmed at the idea , I will be glad you take it off your hands for a small contribution.
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| What is this and how much would you restore it? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44447 |
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | What is this and how much would you restore it? |
I guess the Title says it all Thanks Attachment: P1000435 (640x640) (600x600).jpg Attachment: P1000433 (640x640) (600x600).jpg Attachment: P1000436 (640x640) (600x600).jpg
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| Author: | Cal Maier [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Well looking at the headstock I'd say it's a Recording King. Not sure of the model as I've only seen a few and they were all flat tops. They were made by Gibson. Cal |
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Ha ! Just saw Lance's post! Must be something in the air |
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| Author: | Cal Maier [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Hi Steve, you may want to have a look at this. You can make up your own mind on restoration. Obviously someone wanted the Gibson nameplate and cut it out of the headstock!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vw4XF9qgC8 Cal |
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| Author: | TRein [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Definitely a Recording King but not definitely made by Gibson. Recording King was a Montgomery Ward house brand and some were made by Gibson and some by Kay or possibly Harmony. There seems to be some overlap with the Chicago guitar makers and to me it isn't clear where Kay ends and Harmony begins. Just by the photos of this guitar I'd lean more towards Kay rather than Gibson. The neck appears to be poplar(?), the head is unbound, and the machining/facets on the head look more Kay than Gibson. Here's a link to a Gibson Recording King that looks similar: http://www.archtop.com/ac_38M5.html Still, a cool old guitar. I would clean it up, try to fix anything loose, and definitely not refinish it. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Yes it does appear to be a Recording King. It is difficult to telll if it is actually a Gibson unless you can find somewhere on it that says it is a M Series. (Gibson was notorious for not being consistent in their markings and details). Let me quote what The Official Vintage Guitar Price Guide says (this is the Bible of Collectible Guitars and goes by average price guitars actually sell for). Quote: Recording King Brand Name used by Montgomery Ward for instruments made by various American Manufactures, including Kay, Gibson and Gretsch. Generally mid grade instruments. M Series are Gibson made archtops. M-2 1936 -1941 Gibson made archtop with carved top and F-holes, maple back and sides $650 - $775 M-3 Same info as above--------------------------$800 - $950 M-4 1937-1940 Gibson made archtop with carved top and F-holes, maple back and sides. Rope-checked binding, flying bat wing markers -----------------------------------------------------$1000 - $1200 M-5 Same as M-4 but trapeze tailpiece, checkered top binding. 1936-1938 16" body------------------$1200 - $1500 1939 0 1941 17" body -------------------$1300 - $1600 The book only indicates the Gibson models of this guitar and not the other manufactures. The reason is because they only price collectible guitars that are selling. Not to say yours isn't collectible because there are a lot of people that desire Kay and Harmony guitars. They just are not with that much. So if it were mine and I were going to just keep it I would probably restore it including a complete refinish. You can do it as a little side project and turn it into a decent player. If you are even thinking of selling it then I would just clean it up, dress the frets and put some light strings on it so it plays well and enjoy it until you sell it. Refinishing it will pretty much make it worth nothing. Basically a refinished will cut the price of a collectible in half. So any way you do it you still have a cool piece of history there. Hope this helps, Bob |
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Thanks alot for the input..!! Seems like it is a Recording King of uncertain provenance found the numbers 9 39 F (maybe) inside. so Im guessing a sept 1939 guitar not sure what the F is about the refinishing...in a way is secondary I would like to get it playable but it seems that the neck has bent at the body fret rendering the action very high. Apparently they had steel reinforced necks with no truss rod..The adjustable bridge is down to the max.The neck body joint looks good.don't really want to tackle a whole reset hmm? aah well shes old enough there's no rush |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
If you feel like getting rid of it (or doing anything that shouldn't be done like refinishing it), let me know. |
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| Author: | maxin [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
The quickest way to make a collectible a non-collectible is to re-finish it. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
I am digging the old arch tops you guys have been finding lately. It's too bad Brian Hodge scratched his name into the top of this one. What is the white line running from the edge of the finger board back to the bridge? |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Steve Davis wrote: Seems like it is a Recording King of uncertain provenance found the numbers 9 39 F (maybe) inside. so Im guessing a sept 1939 guitar not sure what the F is about the refinishing...in a way is secondary I would like to get it playable but it seems that the neck has bent at the body fret rendering the action very high. Apparently they had steel reinforced necks with no truss rod..The adjustable bridge is down to the max.The neck body joint looks good.don't really want to tackle a whole reset hmm? aah well shes old enough there's no rush Gibson did put a FON number inside of their guitars which is Factory Order Number and that may be the numbers you are seeing inside. There may be a good chance what you have is an actual Gibson. After thinking about it it could be why the name has been removed from the headstock and the other part that has been cut out could be the model of the guitar. It is possible someone removed it and put it on another guitar. Or is is possible someone removed it to make you think it is a Gibson? Either way I would do some research into that number you found inside. From the early days of Gibson they put a FON on the inside of most of their Mandolins and Guitars. Early Gibson's didn't always have a serial number and even some got stamped with the same SN number or completely out of sequence. They were very lax about standards so it isn't uncommon to find very strange things with them with variations in all models up until the recent past. I saved this link a while ago that may be of help: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/85573/Gibson-Serial-Numbers-vs-FON-FON-tell-year-mfg#.VFJd9o-a_to You also may give the Gibson forum a try and see if someone there can help you figure out if what you have is a real Gibson Someone may know if the bracing inside or some other little detail could give you an indication of what you really have. Some of the guys over there really know their stuff about vintage Gibsons. http://forum.gibson.com/ Hope this helps you. maxin wrote: The quickest way to make a collectible a non-collectible is to re-finish it. You are quite correct, as I said in my prior post "Refinishing it will pretty much make it worth nothing. Basically a refinished will cut the price of a collectible in half." That isn't to say that people don't refinish old guitars. For what ever reason some people like to make an antique look like new and don't really care about the value of what a collector will give them for it. Cheers, Bob |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
This guitar was indeed made by Gibson by the way. Probably an M-3 from 1940. Certainly deserves to be restored properly. |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Steve , If you are just so overwhelmed at the idea , I will be glad you take it off your hands for a small contribution.
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
I hadn't really planned on refinishing as Im not even very good at it, and now I definitely wont! It is a bit of a shame about Mr Hodge. The strange white line is actually the binding of the scratchplate(or whats left of it) some of it had been shoved inside the box. Its super brittle and decayed now. I found this site http://fox-guitars.com/Gibson-Made_Brands.html#Wards2 and it, along with some other pics Ive seen lead me to think David is pretty close with his M3 Id. Havent had a chance to look at that other site yet re the FON , thanks for the link Bob. Ill let you know if I ose heart Wud! |
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| Author: | WudWerkr [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Steve Davis wrote: Ill let you know if I ose heart Wud! There's a Call i wont hold my breath for ! 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
One of our friends loves these old arch tops and since he is one of the best known players in the region with jazz chops he buys these old girls and lovingly fixes them up. Once complete he often plays out with them with his jazz group. Since I get to hear the things brought back to life, play them too at times, I'm pretty fond of old archies too. Here are some things to possibly expect. It may or may not need the neck angle reset. A refret or at least a decent dressing is likely too. The tuners need replacement and/or restoration endeavoring to keep the original ones tuning away. Tuner buttons likely are ready to crumble the first time that you use them so new, matching buttons would be in order too. A replacement pick guard needs to be crafted and the materials either modern fake or original are available from third parties. A good site to visit for archie enthusiasts is http://www.archtop.com/ac_access.html It's likely that the binding is loose or ready to be loose when you get near it... Internal structure should be evaluated so a decent look inside would be prudent. The bridge may or may not need restoration and/or replacement with a shop made bridge but only if the original bridge is unserviceable now. A new nut, killer set-up and of course new string and she should be singing pretty again for another 75 years. I would not mess with the finish... This is a nice enough instrument that it's understandable how the finish looks and why and very much part of the provenance of the instrument and key to it retaining monetary value as the others have said... Sometimes we may not be all that interested in preserving instrument's monetary value but my view is that what I am interested in preserving is the instrument itself. As such when I'm toast my belief is that if an instrument has some value it stands a better chance of being taken care of by the new current steward. Nice find! |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Steve, If, as I understood you to say, parts of the original pick guard/finger rest are down inside the body or the case, I would certainly shake them out of there right away. It is probably old crumbling celluloid and it's off-gassing. I have some ugly personal experience with this in a closed instrument case. Those gases will corrode anything metal (they ate some strings clear through in my experience) and the celluloid is extremely flamable. Get rid of those pieces or at least store them in an open container where the gasses can't accumulate. If you have enough pieces to patch the general shape together, make a tracing. You can make a satisfactory replacement out of modern plastics. I know, I know. Some members will disagree with the advice I just gave. But if that pick guard is already crumbling, you don't need any part of it on your guitar. That's just my opinion for whatever it's worth to you. I think you have a neat old instrument there! |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
cphanna wrote: I know, I know. Some members will disagree with the advice I just gave. But if that pick guard is already crumbling, you don't need any part of it on your guitar. That's just my opinion for whatever it's worth to you. I don't think anyone will disagree with you here. The old pickguard is a goner and any bits left will continue to gas off and cause damage and corrosion to the rest of the instrument if left in close proximity (especially in an unventilated case). Get that stuff out of there and make or have a new pickguard made. There is no way to stabilize degrading celluloid once the fuse is lit and it starts going, and removing it is fully in line with preservation strategies to keep the rest of the artifact better preserved. Good advice. I missed that there were bits of the old guard bouncing around in there. Get that stuff away from the guitar. |
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Wow I never knew! anyway I took that stuff out of there pretty much immediately as it was annoying. I have kept it for a shape template. So anyway of fixing this without a reset? I know I know...probably not.. The neck joint looks pretty tight but shows signs of shrinkage? right at the heel The bow in the FB/Neck is about .030 from the bottom of the rule to the fret at is widest,but is caused mostly by the fb heading uphill at the 14th fret. The last one shows the rule on the frets and where it hits the bridge. Cant really put a square on one of these to tell if the body has "Parallelogrammed" Attachment: P1000443 (600x338).jpg Attachment: P1000444 (600x338).jpg Attachment: P1000446 (600x338).jpg Attachment: P1000448 (600x338).jpg
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| Author: | Steve Davis [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Got this one back to life, Neck reset new tuners , some fret work, and a bit of a clean up Its playing nice...I put 10's on it and they feel too light so will go heavier next string change.. I never played an archtop before so its new for me Attachment: P1000473 (550x413).jpg Attachment: P1000475 (550x413).jpg Attachment: P1000477 (550x413).jpg
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Nice! |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
The only thing I would do for that guitar is make it play good and replace the pick guard. The patina looks great. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Looks like it cleaned up pretty nice and it looks pretty good! It is nice to be able to save an old guitar and bring it back to life, You did good... ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Cheers, Bob |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Gotta love it when the old ones come back to life! |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What is this and how much would you restore it? |
Wow, looks great! I guess Brian Hodge's signature was not worth keeping. Ha ha. |
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