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Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44808		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  hummingbird [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I want to have a black strip between the fretboard binding and neck so I'm thinking for an even stripe I'll layer black fiber under the fretboard. Is this stuff strong enough to withstand pressure from the truss rod?

This is the stuff I have... http://www.lmii.com/products/mostly-woo ... eer-sheets
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I wouldn't recommend black(or any color) fiber for any layer that will be under any stress. The fiber separates easily when glued in layers. I tried using it for wheat once, and when I sawed it, the fiber separated, and I ended up with a handful of tiny pieces! Not very useful.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I've used it as the center strip in a laminated neck and have had no problems but maybe I just got lucky idunno
Author:  Tom West [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Alain: I've used this product for underlays for headstocks but would be reluctant to use it in your situation. Also in Steve's example the forces are in shear rather then tension. I would wait to hear from someone who has had a positive result using it as you suggested.
Tom
Author:  J De Rocher [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I remember seeing at least one photo on the forum where a ledge was routed into the edges of the bottom side of the fretboard to insert purfling as a separator between the binding on the fretboard and the neck. That would preserved the direct glue bond between the fretboard and the neck surface.
Author:  David Collins [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Bad idea, don't do it. This is what layered purfling and binding is for.
Author:  hummingbird [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Thanks friends. I will not use it. I'll either get black dyed real wood veneer or most likely route a ledge.
Author:  Rod True [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Just use binding with a black purfling line.....
Author:  John Arnold [ Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Use black dyed wood veneer instead.
I have seen the fiber have problems when it is stressed.
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Ditto John

Maple dyed black -- we get ours from Constintine's in New York. I've had lamination failures with fiber and fish paper using Titbond Original.
Author:  cphanna [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I was going to suggest dyed wood veneer, too. While building my tenor banjo, I ran across an excellent builder who ornaments his instruments with lots of cross-banding in dyed veneers. I decided to emulate his techniques and make cross-banded fret position markers under the fingerboard. I did this with un-dyed walnut and maple veneers. The neck has a one-way compression truss rod with a spline glued in over it. Then a sandwich of three veneer layers and finally the bound fingerboard on top. It worked very well for me. Frankly, I have no idea whether this would work with a two-way rod and without the spline. But, for a compression rod neck, I see no reason why one or even a few layers of veneer wouldn't work. This degree of ornamentation might be out of place on most guitars, but it always seems to work on banjos. I don't have a picture which features just the cross banding, but you can see a little bit of it in these two shots.
Author:  David Collins [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Please forgive me if this seems overly critical, but I really can't see the slightest bit of sense in this idea of a full layer laminate.

Would you consider laminating your entire soundboard with a layer of black and white plastic on the inside so you could get the black and white lines under your binding around the edges? Would you cut the side panels and doors on your car through the middle and glue in a white layer for pin striping effect?

The neck is a structural component which should be designed with decades or centuries of stress and load in mind - why would you ever consider incorporating a layer across the entire joint for no purpose other than side decoration? Fiber or dyed veneer is not typically touted as prime structural materials or intended to endure heavy loads over many decades. Even if you were to use a layer of ebony or dyed hard maple, is the primary motive for its inclusion structural? Would you include this layer even if the sides were to be entirely obscured by binding? If not, then why would you include it at all?

For god's sake man, purfling! Either that or route the board with a ledge. This is a decorative component, why on earth would you go through extra trouble to introduce its influence to an area where it has no good business?

Rant over.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I have contemplated this many times, especially when doing something like a koa binding on a mahogany neck. I've decided against it mainly out of tonal concerns. Half a square foot of extra glue line and a layer of brazilian fiber board for all those baby tones to fight through. And if that didn't resonate enough, the structural issues are binding in my mind as well.

I built a Ledge once and managed to leave 20 thou of black ebony without breaking it. It was tricky and quite time consuming, but very satisfying everytime I look at it.

For those who are advocating purfling, how do you get it the exact same level as the base of the fretboard? With binding, I typically overhang .005 to .010 and sand down. But, with .010 or .020 purfling...
Author:  Greg B [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
pat macaluso wrote:
I built a Ledge once and managed to leave 20 thou of black ebony without breaking it. It was tricky and quite time consuming, but very satisfying everytime I look at it.


I routed a ledge about 30 thou once. Though it was only because I decided to bind the fretboard after it had been glued to the neck, it was easier than I expected. I think Larson did this on many guitars. I prefer a thicker fretboard than most, and this method avoids having neck binding that is awkwardly tall.

Image
Author:  David Collins [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
pat macaluso wrote:
For those who are advocating purfling, how do you get it the exact same level as the base of the fretboard? With binding, I typically overhang .005 to .010 and sand down. But, with .010 or .020 purfling...


Just don't glue any overhang. Make a flat caul the width of the board with binding (or slightly under), clamp the board down tight, and glue your binding down tight to the board and caul. Or if you prefer glue the unbound board to the neck and clean out the corner, then bind later.

When I was building we routed the edge with a ledge, and It was about as simple as it gets. Route, glue on binding, build neck. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
David, I take your point about adding veneer for decoration only; can I extend that thought to assume you would not be a proponent of laminated necks. I like the look of a neck with a center strip and think lines along its length. It sounds like you recommend against this.
Author:  David Collins [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
No, I'm not against laminated necks. Different axis, different loads on the joints, different materials (usually).
Author:  Clinchriver [ Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
Bryan Bear wrote:
David, I take your point about adding veneer for decoration only; can I extend that thought to assume you would not be a proponent of laminated necks. I like the look of a neck with a center strip and think lines along its length. It sounds like you recommend against this.


The problem is using paper for a lamination, potential/eventual failure.
Author:  John Sonksen [ Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Black fiber veneer layer under fretboard ok?
I used strips of dyed green purfling strip under the binding on my most recent one, I just routed a little shelf for it the depth of the veneer thickness. That way it only took up a small width of the gluing surface on each side of the fret board and wasn't running across the whole width of the fretboard all the way down.
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