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| is this finish achievable at home? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44890 |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | is this finish achievable at home? |
Hi See quite alot of guitars with a modern satin/matt finish, almost plastic look to it. Tanglewood seem to pull it off really well Not everyones cup of tea but i love the look Question is what do you think they are using and can i do something similar at home Here's some pics of the look Thanks in advance  
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Yes, 2 coats of Danish Oil. Take you all of 10 minutes! You need a matting agent in your finish to diffuse/scatter the light. |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Exactly my thoughts when I saw the picture. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Thanks Michael. .. does the danish oil colour the light wood much as want it as light as poss. .also what sort of diffuse would you recommend. .thanks |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
No. That was in jest. The Danish Oil will give you a very similar effect but won't really protect the wood much, other than from grubby fingers. Sometimes I use this type of finish but I always seal with a coat or two of very dilute Shellac first. 2 or 3 coats of Danish Oil on top. Stop at the level of sheen required. Any more than 2 or 3 coats and it will start to look glossy. You may have to sand to 400G or even 600G on your woodwork. A thin Oil on wood really highlights the scratches. If you are willing to refresh the finish every 2 or 3 years it makes for a nice tactile finish with a warm feel compared to full on gloss. Play heavy with a Pick and you will certainly need Golpeadors. The Danish Oil does not give a great deal of colour but the wood underneath is going to oxidise sooner or later. Eventually it's going to go a Tan colour. All you can do is slow it down somewhat, usually with a UV protector in the finish. Other than that I mean putting a matting agent into your regular finish. It can be put into Shellac, Nitro etc. usually in the last one or two coats. Finish suppliers sell mating agent, usually some type of silica suspension. I've even heard of talcum powder being used. I've also heard that it results in a finish that isn't as hard as one without a matting agent. I have zero experience of matting agents. I'm sure others on the forum do. |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Cablepuller wrote: Hi See quite alot of guitars with a modern satin/matt finish, almost plastic look to it. Tanglewood seem to pull it off really well Not everyones cup of tea but i love the look Question is what do you think they are using and can i do something similar at home Tanglewood will likely be using either a polyurethane or polyester finish, neither of which you'd want to spray in a home environment. However, a very similar finish can be obtained using matt finish nitrocellulose, which a good lacquer supplier will stock. You may not want to spray that at home either, but it's not quite as bad as the poly's. The process I use is just the same as doing a high gloss finish, using gloss lacquer, until the last two coats, which I spray with the matt/satin product. Before those last two coats you need to have the gloss finish sanded absolutely flat. You need to be pretty good with a spray gun because what you see is the finish straight off the gun. Why not just leave it with the flattened gloss finish? You can, but with use it will gloss up quite quickly. The satin/matt finish will gloss up too, with use over time, but a lot more slowly than the sanded finish. Here's "one I did earlier"... Attachment: Steel String_1U.jpg
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
You can buy a satin/flat brushing lacquer from Lowes/Walmart/Home Depot and brush on several coats and then sand flat and hand buff to a low sheen to get that finish. Less work than doing a gloss finish and makes less than perfect work less obvious. I would start and end with satin so as to not build too much finish thickness, which makes the finish more craze prone and obscures the wood grain. Using only satin will also allow you to "buff down" spots that might gloss up from wear without going through to a gloss layer. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
I use Watco satin lacquer in rattle cans to get that affect. The key is "no" buffing or polishing of the final coat. Spray it wet self level -- done. Here's a satin tenor uke I made for my brother last year.  
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Thanks for the replies...ken how many coats do you use |
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| Author: | Greg B [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Might be polyester or two part polyurethane, but it could very well be lacquer. For home use, rattle cans of matt lacquer would be the best way of getting this finish. Got a driveway for spraying? Another brand to look at would be Mohawk. I believe they sell a pre-cat lacquer in spray cans. The whole point of this finish from the manufacturer's point of view is that it saves time and labor. It can be left "off the gun" (not rubbed and leveled) to save time. Some rattle can brands will self-level better than others, though obviously a spray gun and experience is best. In the furniture industry at least, a typical finish schedule would be like this: - pore fill (paste) - two coats of sanding sealer - sand lightly with 320 stearated paper - two or three coats lacquer, sprayed lightly Oil finishes are nice and I like them, but the look is very different. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Its made of Black Walnut -- no pore fill. Four wet coats - level - one final wet coat. Actually my preferred finish is satin back, sides, neck. Top gloss either lacquer or French polish. |
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| Author: | Parser [ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
I like the look....not to mention it sounds better...! |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
I like that look too. It seems that this type of finish is seen as cheap to many guitar enthusiasts out there which is too bad because it's obviously not and it looks quite good. I don't know if I would agree that the tone is better though. I don't think there is much difference between the formulations of a satin and a gloss nitro to make a difference. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
i have seen the finish on the tanglewoods at £600+..so not just cheapies I have had quite a few cheap guitars over the years and they always seem to go for a sort of yellow coloured top/dark sides and neck and high sheen |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
http://www.lowdenguitars.com/guitar-range-original |
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| Author: | tedlee [ Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Conversion varnish, visit your friendly neighborhood cabinet shop. Those of us who play are luthier friendly. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Greg B wrote: Might be polyester or two part polyurethane, but it could very well be lacquer. For home use, rattle cans of matt lacquer would be the best way of getting this finish. Got a driveway for spraying? Another brand to look at would be Mohawk. I believe they sell a pre-cat lacquer in spray cans. The whole point of this finish from the manufacturer's point of view is that it saves time and labor. It can be left "off the gun" (not rubbed and leveled) to save time. Some rattle can brands will self-level better than others, though obviously a spray gun and experience is best. In the furniture industry at least, a typical finish schedule would be like this: - pore fill (paste) - two coats of sanding sealer - sand lightly with 320 stearated paper - two or three coats lacquer, sprayed lightly Oil finishes are nice and I like them, but the look is very different. Hey greg Finally at this stage and decided to go with your technique above couple of questions if ok Going to sanding seal with shellac sealer ..is that ok? Also how many coats/cans of nitro do u think for a dreadnought Cheers |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
That looks like some kind of urethane or polyester type finish in satin. You can achieve similar finish in nitro by using satin nitro, but what I do is spray gloss and then steel wool the entire body to make it satin. Some customers prefer satin finish simply because they don't want a plastic looking guitar. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Tai What do you sand to and do you use a sanding sealer (shellac based) Cheers |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Well I sand with a 400 grit, and then 000 steel wool. It makes for an organic finish. Nice thing about satin is you can get away with some finish blemish.... |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
I'm afraid steel wool (even 0000) produces the satin finish by putting random scratches into the finish. They are very fine scratches but they most certainly are there and can be observed in raking light. Tried it, long time ago. It might be OK for furniture where folk don't look so closely at the finish. You need a matting agent in the finish, whether you put that in yourself or buy a finish which already contains that matting agent. It's this matting agent that scatters the light. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
I agree scratching up the surface is not a satin finish -- spraying a satin sheen level product (as I mention I use nitro) is a very simple process, and the beauty is, spray it --- done! |
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| Author: | Casey Cochran [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
A gunsmith friend of mine put me on to a product that he uses for stocks. I have used it on necks and one body with good results. It is a tung oil modified urethane called Pro Custom Oil available from Brownells. It is available in a can or aerosol, gloss or satin. To fill the pores on mahogany necks I use the rattle cans and start with gloss because it builds quicker. The end grain will sort of fish eye and you can wipe the finish into the pores with a gloved finger after it dries just a bit. After a few coats, wet sand with 400 using the same finish as a lubricant. It will create a slurry that will fill the remaining voids. Topcoat with satin. |
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| Author: | Cablepuller [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
kencierp wrote: I agree scratching up the surface is not a satin finish -- spraying a satin sheen level product (as I mention I use nitro) is a very simple process, and the beauty is, spray it --- done! Ken Yes thanks have ordered some satin finish nitro (1 can) Just need to know about prep really I have got shellac sanding sealer and here but not sure if its compatible with nitro Simply im ready to go the box is currently bare wood sanded to 100 grit Whats the schedule  Thanks |
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| Author: | Greg B [ Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: is this finish achievable at home? |
Cablepuller wrote: Hey greg Finally at this stage and decided to go with your technique above couple of questions if ok Going to sanding seal with shellac sealer ..is that ok? Also how many coats/cans of nitro do u think for a dreadnought Cheers Shellac is a fine sealer, and it's what I use, but it is not sanding sealer, and it won't help fill in the wood for a flat surface. Therefore you will need a lot more coats of lacquer. Probably around 10. Obviously one can will not be enough. You can build up a flat surface with shellac like it was sanding sealer, but it's slow to build and a lot harder to sand. Much more work. One the plus side, it isn't as soft. Sanding sealer is sort of a cheat, but it saves a whole lot of time, which is why it is/was used in the furniture industry. It's basically lacquer with soft fillers in it. I personally don't use it for guitars, but it will make things much easier for you as a beginner. I mentioned the commercial finishing schedule because it is fast and easy, and most people don't know about it unless they've squirted lacquer for a living. (i did for a little while) Here's stew mac's tutorial: http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_Resources/Finishing/ColorTone_Aerosol_Finishing_Kit_Instructions.html http://www.rockler.com/how-to/when-to-use-sanding-sealer/ |
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