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| Glue question? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=44977 |
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| Author: | jason72 [ Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Glue question? |
Ever used fish glue, unflavored gelatin, or rabbit glue in lieu of hhg? Pros and cons of either of these alternatives ? |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
jason72: Tried gelatin once as an experiment and it seemed just as strong as any other glue.............and tastes much better than HHG. Must admit I never did use it on an instrument. Tom |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Like Tom I tried Gelatin once. It's probably quite an expensive way of buying glue. I have some Rabbit skin glue and I really dislike the smell. I don't know of anyone using it for woodwork though. There are two types of Fish glue, liquid Fish glue and the expensive dry Isinglass. Hardly any Guitar makers use the Isinglass. The liquid Fish glue has a very long open time in comparison to HHG, which can be seen as both an advantage and a disadvantage. Some 95% of my glue use involves HHG, the other 5% is the liquid Fish glue. HHG really isn't that difficult to use and once mixed is just about as convenient as bottled glue, perhaps more convenient if you factor in the ease of clean up. In my experience most beginners make the mistake of mixing HHG too thick, thinking that it should flow like PVA. |
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| Author: | Imbler [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
As a hobby builder only, I use fish glue exclusively except for CA on the bindings. I like the inherent repairability (it will glue to itself so if I had to repair a brace joint for example, I wouldn't have to remove all glue residue). Since I'm not on a production schedule, I have no problem leaving joints clamped overnight, and the long open time makes for relaxed assembly. |
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| Author: | Ben-Had [ Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Imbler wrote: As a hobby builder only, I use fish glue exclusively except for CA on the bindings. I like the inherent repairability (it will glue to itself so if I had to repair a brace joint for example, I wouldn't have to remove all glue residue). Since I'm not on a production schedule, I have no problem leaving joints clamped overnight, and the long open time makes for relaxed assembly. Yes, I use fish glue frequently, it has many of the same properties as HHG with a longer open time. |
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| Author: | gozierdt [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
There have been some questions about how well fish glue will last in variable environmental conditions. Do a search for fish glue on the forum, you'll get a lot of hits... I personally have been using it more and more, with good results so far. The one thing I see in using it is that it has a much faster and more firm initial tack than the PVC glues. I also don't use fish or any of the water based glues for fretboard to neck joint. I just don't like introducing that much water into the neck. I use epoxy for that joint. |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Hobby builder here as well, and as Gene pointed out, the initial tack was a winner for me. I had previously used the LMI white and it was annoyingly slippery.... So cool to rub into place and clamp with fish glue. The detractors call out reversibility - however I have successfully removed fretboards and tightened up binding gaps without issue with a bit of heat....and patience.... |
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| Author: | rtpipkin [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I've only been using fIsh glue for a year but haven't observed any issues in temperatures ranging from low 40s to upper 90s and humidity from 37% to 89%. I do worry about temp and humidity, but not about the fish glue failing. That said, I'm no expert. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
What is the shelf life of fish glue like? Alex |
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| Author: | JSDenvir [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I mostly use hhg, but I use fish glue for bindings. I like the longer open time. It gives me more time to get glue all over _everything_  Joking aside, I use "organic" glues for everything sound related. Does it make a difference? Dunno, but nobody has suggested any downside, so why not? Steve |
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| Author: | WaddyThomson [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Alex Kleon wrote: What is the shelf life of fish glue like? Alex Easily several years if kept cool. I don't know if it freezes, but as long as it tacks well it will be fine. One test is to glue your thumb and forefinger together until it begins to tack then pull them apart. If you get a thousand fine long strings as you pull them apart, the glue is good, I'm told. If you don't get strings don't use it. I have some that I've had for over 5 years that still seems to harden as it should. Another thing, is to always stir or shake the glue well before using. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Thanks, Waddy! My bottle is a couple of years old, so I'll try your test in the morning. Alex |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
+1 for fish glue. Another hobbyist here. I use fish glue for almost everything besides fretboard to neck (T-88) and the individual side-to-top blocks for old-style classical building (this is the place where you want to cook up the HHG for sure - need the instant grab or the job would take all day.) |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I have used all the glues. David Laplante turned me on to the fish glue. Been using it for a long time about 4 yrs with no ill effects. Of a few negatives that were posted many never used . One thing is that the fish glue does require more clamp time. I allow 12 hr 8 hr recommended. Never had an issue with RH and this is one glue that can be frozen . This also has about a 2 yr shelf life. Dries hard. HHG is also used a lot. I find myself more into the drying glues and less with curing glues. HHG and Fish are drying glues and when remixed with hot water can become glue again. CA and Tite bond are curing glues. I would say that joint integrity is the most important factor , also the protein glues will dry harder. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Wood is hygroscopic. Seems to me that if you use a glue that introduces water into the wood then that water will simple leave the wood in the following days just. I'm sure the reasoning is good but I just don't get it or believe it. I like fish for all the reasons mentioned. I don't care for the long clamping time however but still it's good stuff. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I use water-based glue for the fretboard and just leave it clamped to a flat surface for a long time (allowing the moisture to equilibrate). I can afford to do this since I build so slowly. I would think that this approach would lend itself well to fish glue for this joint. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Bryan Bear wrote: I use water-based glue for the fretboard and just leave it clamped to a flat surface for a long time (allowing the moisture to equilibrate). I can afford to do this since I build so slowly. I would think that this approach would lend itself well to fish glue for this joint. Quite possibly - I haven't tried this step and perhaps I am unnecessarily heeding warnings about not using a water based glue for the fretboard/neck joint, but I have always felt that the epoxy joint also is impressively invisible (at least when using ebony fretboards) so I'm not stopping now! |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Martin has been using water based tite bond on the fretboards and white glue before that and hot hide glue before that. There is no reason that you can't use water based glues. Martin uses tite bond and the clamp time is about 45 min. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
OK I'll be the odd man out here and report that we had some fish failures 4 - 5 years ago with bridge reglues.... If you go back far enough in the OLF archives Dave Collins is the one who introduced most of us, certainly me to fish glue approx. eight years ago and we used it with high hopes. It is nice stuff in that the bond is also very hard and crystalline not unlike HHG. We were religious about how we handled and used the glue just like we are with any glue. Norland who is where we got our FG from recommends or used to recommend replacing yearly and that's what we did buying a gallon at a time AND only purchasing it when the temps for the journey were well above freezing. I would guess that we had several bridges lift 2 - 5 years out with fish and they always lifted in the heat and humidity of a Michigan summer - August. It's likely that we reglue 50 or more bridges annually so these failures did stand out and as such we discontinued using it for bridges. We have reported this before on the OLF and it was met with disbelief making me reluctant to waste my time and energy reporting our personal experience with the glue again. OTOH I would not want this to happen to anyone else AND when you have glue failures with paying clients it's as bad as it gets in my view - they always deserve the very best available work and materials. The last time that I reported this here things degenerated as they can when someone feels threatened which is not at all what I would hope for or what my intent is in going against the grain of this thread with specific and multiple negative experiences with the glue. As such my advice would be that if you or the ax have any plans to be in a higher RH environment consider HHG as a great alternative. We have yet to have a single bridge reglue from the hundreds that we have done come back lifted with HHG. And that's all I am going to say about this.... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
A few questions Hesh I heard people had issues on a bridge ,I have been using it a while and shipped guitars all over with it. No failures. I do apply glue to both surfaces and allow ample clamp time. What method did you use. HHG on a bridge is easy I do it the same way Slop Plop and clamp. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
Hi John: Guess I am going to say a bit more.... Same process/procedure as HHG, clean surfaces of all old glue, expand gluing surface, fit the bridge for gapless fit with minimal clamping pressure, scrape minutes before gluing, apply glue to both surfaces in sufficient quantities to have squeeze-out all around, set clamps, leave clamped for a minimum of 24 hours. The last one that I saw that we used fish with that lifted was the summer of 2013 and had lasted five years before lifting. This was a Martin dr*ad with mediums on it, D-18 IIRC and belonged to a guy who played in a barn.... and likely left the guitar in the barn at times too.... Of course we guarantee our work and had to redo the three or so failures that we saw and did so with HHG and none of these instruments have had any issues relating to the bridge reglue since. We are not the only ones who reported fish glue failures either and I recall at least a few on this forum but can't recall who made the posts. I have a memory like a steel trap but, er.... I forgot what I was going to say.... Anyway it's not what we would have hoped for, our clients either and was unnerving enough to stop using fish. I can't see any fault with our methods since we have yet to have a HHG bridge come back in nearly a decade now. Fish was very promising to us and we were advocates of the glue if anyone recalls the earlier days of the forum. But.... we can't have bridges coming loose and have zero tolerance for any glue, material, method, etc. that might ever degrade the customer experience for our clients. YMMV and I hope that it does, our experience was not positive. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I'm going to add something here as well. My guitars are kept in a strictly RH controlled space and other than the occasional times that I go out and play my guitars live their lives in the best of conditions. This is not the case for many folks though and a very large percentage of our clients are gigging musicians who also travel at times as well. We all know what this can mean in terms of environmental impact on a wooden musical instrument. One of our clients is a famous actor who also is a musician with some albums. He travels back and forth to the HBO studio in California and so too do his Martins including his own Martin signature edition that he super glued his hand too and we rescued him and his guitar.... True story.... But again this clients instruments are on the move, at 30,000 feet at times, live in a movie studio trailer at times, etc. It could be that for folks here who have had success and no issues that the instruments have not been exposed to the ravages of the real world just like my personal instruments. Speculation? Sure but for lack of any other data and considering when the failures occurred we do suspect that higher RH may be the issue. No proof mind you just suspicions nonetheless switching back to HHG eliminated the issue for us. So that's what we did. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I'm trying to think how a bridge can fail that was glued with fish glue and exposed to high humidity. The moisture must start right at the fine line where the edge of the bridge meets the top right? Or is it possible that the humidity was so bad that the moisture content in the spruce top itself began to melt the glue away?? I kind of doubt the latter so in thinking about the former would a thin coat of finish around the glue joint minimize that exposure by slowing down the absorption rate perhaps? |
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| Author: | jason72 [ Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
What about titebond hide glue or old brown glue? Would I be better off using fish glue than these types? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Glue question? |
I've heard good and bad about Old Brown and mostly just bad about the liquid hide. I did build a guitar using liquid hide and 20 years later, and has absolute been through the ringer, she's still holding together. I must have gotten a fresh batch and that is what you have to be careful of regarding that stuff. It's best to just not use it. Fish glue has certainly past the test of time. |
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