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Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
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Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
So it's been a year since I moved to a new house and I've yet to build any guitars. I've got my repair space set up in a controlled basement so that's been keeping me good and busy but I'm getting anxious to start building again. The house we bought has two outbuildings, one we refinished to be my wife's pottery studio and the other the guitar shop with some all purpose shop space and a gallery for our crafts.

It's incredible how long this takes but we are almost there. So I've been researching the heck out of heating and cooling and have concluded that Mini Splits would be a great investment. The shop space is two floors. It's an old barn that is roughly 11X22ft with a loft that is about 11x18ft. The floor is hardwood and I had 2in of closed cell foam sprayed under that. The ceiling is vaulted and was filled with 6in spray foam. The walls are all pink batting insulation.

I went to a local HVAC place and was quoted over $5k to install mini splits... Way way over budget so in doing research I found that there are these do it your self systems that come precharged and look like a snap to install. HEre are the two that are high on my list:

Ideal Air
http://www.ideal-air.com/products/mini- ... -seer.aspx

Friedrich
http://residential.friedrich.com/Produc ... cBrandID=6

I'm open to any other possibilities but I need 24x7 365 days environmental control.

I've also found mini split systems that do not come with the DIY lines that require an HVAC technician but it really doesn't look all that hard to vacuum out a line or use a flaring tool to make copper lines. Besides if I invest in a vacuum pump to do this job then maybe I'll use it for vacuum clamping :D

Anyway if you care to share your experiences, opinions, dire warnings or spiritual advice I would love to hear it.

Anyway here is where I am, before after. This weekend will finish a lot of things I hope.

The shop building:
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The first floor when we moved in
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First floor today
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Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
Second floor when we moved in
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Second floor today (no I didn't refinish the floors with that belt sander :D)
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Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
That's lookin' great. I wish I had a space like that...
Author:  SteveSmith [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
That is nice! I have been looking at split units for my shop too. Hopefully the DIY install but would it be that much more to have an HVAC guy come out and evacuate the lines?
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
I have a mini-split heat pump/ac in my shop, and it is great. The brand of mine is Pace-Air, I believe. It runs like a top. I'm told that most of these systems are built in the same plant in China and the name is stamped on them. Mine heats and cools and keeps my shop toasty in winter and cool in summer. It does not de-humidify like a big system, though, so some additional help there will be necessary. I finally gave up with consumer de-humidifiers and bought a SantaFe, and it is awesome. Has air filters that let it double as an air cleaner. Not as much cfm as some of the big ones, but it moves 10 times more air than the consumer models.

Back to the mini-split. The whole system ended up costing me about $2500, installed. The guy I bought it from had some licensed technicians that did it for him on the side. He didn't have all the overhead of a big HVAC firm. I had two quotes for similar systems, one for $5000 and another for $8000. I told them to pound sand! The difference was probably name brand and name installer. Mine has been going strong now for about 5 years. I do keep it serviced by an HVAC firm twice a year, along with my house system.

I would guess yours will be a bit more, since you'll need two separate inside units to the one outside unit.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
Yeah the cost difference of having one installed by the HVAC pro's is about 60% more. I can buy the unit I need for about $1400 and then other superfluous supplies will probably add up to about $1500. Or I can buy a regular system and a tool kit for about $1600 but then I have a vacuum pump for future use too. The DIY kits are only one indoor unit and one compressor. I've not found a DIY multiunit system. I think I can get away with it if I place it properly. The second floor is really a loft so there is a wide stairwell there and I can place floor vents around the perimeter to let the heat flow up and just use a box fan if I am going to spend any time up there in the summer to bring the AC up. Plus there are louver's that can be adjusted.

Anyway I'm glad to hear about your mini split Waddy and that was my thinking as well. Like many products today they simply stamp another name brand on it and it comes from the same factory. In some cases the alternative name brands might be year old technology. But you go to an HVAC website and the tradesmen make it look like you are going to end up in a money pit or burn your house down. I hope they are not right :D

Also it's funny too but the best information I can find online about these DIY systems are indoor pot farmers who use them to cool down their grow rooms laughing6-hehe
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
It sounds like you have the home/shop I have always wanted. The mini system should do the trick.

I don't know where you live but most areas will require a permit. They usually will only issue one to a licensed HVAC guy and a separate one to an electrician for the electrical upgrade you will most likely need.

I have been know to bypass that step but it can come back to bite you. Good luck
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
Joe, lets just say I live in Appalachia, the least geographically located tax audited region in the whole of the US ;)

We still got our moonshiners which I have no problem with but we also got meth labs... bad bad stuff. I hope they won't come after makers of saw dust.

Actually I checked and to install duct work it requires a permit. I think mini splits are too new still maybe. Not sure. Also they are very easy going about accessory buildings. Inside the living space is a bit different.
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
Yeah, I think you have to have a permit to install ducts, but not for a mini split. Don't take that to the law though! [headinwall]
Author:  dzsmith [ Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
As far as permits go, I'd consult your insurance agent.
Author:  bfeils [ Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
I installed a mini split system myself for my Theater/studio space in my house. It's not that difficult if your handy with electrical and general carpentry. The only thing you'll need a pro for is to vacuum the coolant lines. cost me about 100 bucks. Couldn't be happier with the performance of the unit. Best 1400 dollars i spent on that project.

Here you can see the air handler in the back.
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And the compressor unit. My dad checking level haha.

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Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
That's a great looking room there bfeils. Glad to hear that it's working out so well.
Author:  Kelby [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
I had my HVAC guy put a mini-split in my three-car garage shop. It makes all the difference in the world. It does get EXPENSIVE on the electric bill here in Southern California. The garage is just a very inefficient place to keep climate controlled. It costs more to keep the garage cool than the rest of my house. But it's worth it!
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
Good to hear Kelby. I can imagine it does get pretty hot down there. I'll have hot and cold extremes to deal with in Appalachia Virginia but I'll also have many days out of the year where I could build guitars outdoors or with the windows open in perfect conditions. So I hope to strike a balance. Plus I put a lot into the insulation too. The shop has 3 doors so I have to seal those up nice and tight, old windows too and I think I will just put plastic film over those. Fun stuff!
Author:  windsurfer [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
is that a Cervelo that was hanging on the wall upstairs when you moved in ?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shop Talk: Heating and Cooling (large pics)
windsurfer wrote:
is that a Cervelo that was hanging on the wall upstairs when you moved in ?

Haha. No all the bikes are mine. I should have asked them to clean out the outbuildings before we moved in. They did ask and I said don't worry about it but it turned out to be kind of a PIA. Mostly old paint and various parts and junk. The Cervelo is an Eire (pronounced air) which was one of the first bikes that put them on the map some time around 2000. It's a good bike but I don't do many TT's anymore and if I do I just use clip on bars.
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