Junk guitars are a world all to themselves
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| Set up order? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45876 |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Set up order? |
I'm extremely confused setting up a junk guitar. I've got the truss rod set, nut roughed out, saddle roughed out. Do I refine the nut height and slots before the saddle or vice-versa? Thanks, -j |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Nut, then saddle. |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
James Orr wrote: Nut, then saddle. Thank you! |
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| Author: | yukonarizona [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
My experience is the opposite. I think that in order to achieve the best possible setup you must first set the relief (always adjusting your tuning) then set the height of the saddle (pay attention to the radius) and finally set the string height at the nut (finishing by shaping the nut). If the string height at the nut is set before the saddle height is determined, and you have to lower the saddle, then you may very well end up with your nut slots being to low. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Quote: Nut, then saddle. Absolutely wrong! Saddle, then nut. If you set the action low at the nut, then lower it at the saddle - you may end up with your strings laying on the frets. Rattley...... Buzz. What I do is capo at the first fret to simulate proper action at the nut, then set my saddle height. Then remove the capo, and set your string action at the nut. If done right, you'll have love on six strings. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Nut, then saddle. Assuming the frets are well leveled, the nut height requires no reference beyond the first two frets. Referencing from the saddle unnecessarily brings in irrelevant references, complicates the process, and reduces precision. Of course if the frets aren't perfectly leveled this approach loses it's critical reference and you can mess things up easily, but then again that applies to the whole setup if the fret level is off anyway. Frets are the base reference for everything in setup. Then the nut can be most precisely adjusted to that reference alone, with final relief and saddle height being tweaked in tandem at the end. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Mr. Orr and Mr. Collins - I've been doing guitar repair and building guitars for music stores in the Wichita area since 1977. I know what I am talking about. Saddle, THEN nut. |
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| Author: | jack [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Like most things guitar building related, I believe there is usually more than one way to do things, all with satisfactory results. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Once I have the frets level and relief set, I check nut string clearance over the 1st fret with the string fretted behind the 2nd fret (i.e. between the 2nd and the 3rd fret). Saddle has no effect on the nut when doing it this way. Perhaps others do it differently in which case the saddle may have an effect with their method. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
On a "junk guitar" where the neck might be a little wonky , you could alternately work both ends against the middle, and then work on the frets to fix any odd buzzes that might crop up. If it is truly a junk guitar getting things too close may just cause problems down the road. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Junk guitars are a world all to themselves
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| Author: | David Collins [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Everyone's free to use what approach works best for them. 20 years ago I used to do the saddle first as well, and got by okay. From my perspective and experience today, I look back at that as a very roundabout approach that I would not return to. |
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| Author: | Cush [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
I have always set the saddle first. If you use a capo either way should work fine. If you have an adjustable bridge as found on instruments that have a tailpiece, I think setting the saddle and bridge first is the best way. |
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| Author: | Jimmyjames [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
I bought this $36 junk guitar to practice and learn a few things. I reset the neck and that went surprisingly well despite the fact this thing has an inordinate amount of unknown glue. I did the nut first but took it down in stages so I could refine my techniques in getting the shape of the slot and and the roll off correct. I followed the example on Lutherie.net and shaped the slots like a horn with no more than 30 percent bearing surface. Used the smallest Grobet nut slot file and roughly set grooves in and later refined them with three square and needle files. The results are pretty good but I'm aiming higher. I can't stand to play or even hear a guitar that isn't well intonated, it just makes me feel nauseous. So far, it's about five cents sharp. I will say that this junk guitar is turning out pretty good. The feel of it is much better than before and replacing the plastic bits made a major improvement in the sound. Bone seems to give it this meaty bite to the low end that I really like, which reminds me of the dirty side of an amplified electric. Sustain is WOW in comparison. I spent a lot of time getting the fit of the nut and saddle absolutely perfect and I'm assuming that has helped the sustain. I tried sanding off the finish but it proved to be too hard and way too thick for it to be reasonable. Maybe paint thinner would work better? Suggestions are welcome. I don't have a capo. I'm unsure where it wandered off to? So I have to do all this without one. I tried zip ties but it didn't work at all. Today I'm going to dial in the saddle and see where I'm at. It would be really nice for me to have a guitar to play again. I'll be a much happier person and I'll be able to relax a bit with my current build. Thanks for the tips everyone, -j |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Surprising that such an essential operation is so contentious. It took me a while, but I settled on: 1. Set relief - with string fretted at 1st and body, relief is independent of nut slots or saddle height. 2. Refine nut slots with capo between 2nd and 3rd, looking just a hint of clearance above first (I have hard measurements, but it amounts to a "hint") Using the capo takes the saddle height out of equation while refining slots. 3. Adjust saddle for desired clearance over 12th -- no capo anywhere. If you do nut last, you will need to capo at first for saddle adjustment in order to take nut height out of equation. Just makes more sense to me to do 12th action height last with open strings. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
David Collins wrote: Nut, then saddle. Assuming the frets are well leveled, the nut height requires no reference beyond the first two frets. Referencing from the saddle unnecessarily brings in irrelevant references, complicates the process, and reduces precision. Of course if the frets aren't perfectly leveled this approach loses it's critical reference and you can mess things up easily, but then again that applies to the whole setup if the fret level is off anyway. Frets are the base reference for everything in setup. Then the nut can be most precisely adjusted to that reference alone, with final relief and saddle height being tweaked in tandem at the end. Words of wisdom that should be taken on board by anybody doing set-ups. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
I don't have a hard and fast system. I check my books and notes, then the forum to see if there's something new to consider, before proceeding. The way my system's shaping up is much like Tim's. I was using my Stew-Mac gauges until the "String Height at the Nut" thread, where David Collins' posts made seriously re-think things. It just makes sense that if action above the 12th (saddle height) is dependent on string height at the nut, get the nut worked out first. YMMV. This is working for me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Cush [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
I think setting the neck relief should proceed the final nut adjustment. Strings should be at full tension when you check nut slots. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Same order as when a guitar has a "zero fret" ---- I totally agree with Collins. |
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| Author: | George L [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
David Collins wrote: Nut, then saddle. Assuming the frets are well leveled, the nut height requires no reference beyond the first two frets. Referencing from the saddle unnecessarily brings in irrelevant references, complicates the process, and reduces precision. Of course if the frets aren't perfectly leveled this approach loses it's critical reference and you can mess things up easily, but then again that applies to the whole setup if the fret level is off anyway. Frets are the base reference for everything in setup. Then the nut can be most precisely adjusted to that reference alone, with final relief and saddle height being tweaked in tandem at the end. Yes. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
On a new guitar I get the nut close first referencing off the first fret of the fretted string, make sure the relief is where I want it, set the saddle height and intonate the saddle. The constant retuning kind of beds in the strings in the nut and after that I get the nut perfect. I've had some problems getting the nut perfect right away as the strings sometimes sink a couple of thousands with retuning a few times. |
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| Author: | Bob Long [ Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
The nut and saddle can be set-up in either order or simultaneously... They each should be adjusted based on it's height above the fretboard... not on the height of the other end of the string. |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Terence Kennedy wrote: I've had some problems getting the nut perfect right away as the strings sometimes sink a couple of thousands with retuning a few times. It is perhaps worth pointing out that even if the bottom of the nut slots were to be a couple of thou (or mil as I believe the American term is) under the level of the first fret , it wouldn't really affect the action adversely ... all it would do would be to make the guitar play easier at the first fret. Contrary to what might seem (erroneously ) to be axiomatic, it would be most unlikely to cause any fret buzz. On a 25.5" scale guitar, with the minimum recommended Martin settings, the gap between the unfretted E string and the top of the first fret is .010" , and the gap at the e string is .007", assuming the bottom of the fret slot is exactly in the same plane as the fret tops (let's leave relief out of the mix for the moment) . So if the nut slot is a couple of thou lower than ideal ... not a problem IMO. I doubt very much that the amplitude of the plucked open E string at the first fret is anything like .008" , nor that the amplitude of the e string is anything like .005", regardless of how hard it is plucked. |
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| Author: | guitarjtb [ Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Chris Pile wrote: Quote: Nut, then saddle. Absolutely wrong! Saddle, then nut. If you set the action low at the nut, then lower it at the saddle - you may end up with your strings laying on the frets. Rattley...... Buzz. I tend to think of the nut as a zero fret. The bottom of the nut slots are basically the same height off the fret board as the top of the frets. If you start the nut slots there, you won't set the action low at the nut, because if it cause rattles and buzzes at this setting, you will also have rattles and buzzes when you fret at the first fret. This, of course, means you have other fret/fretboard problems. "Absolutely wrong!" is pretty strong, since it will work either way, nut/saddle, or saddle/nut. You just have to keep the geometry in mind. I actually get the nut really close to where I want it, and then work the saddle down to get the desired action at the 12th fret. Then I do my finally touch up on the nut slots. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Set up order? |
Well, the original post was about JUNK guitars..... not brand new builds, or good quality used stuff.... JUNK! And I stand by my post. 'Cause I've done it the other way - it was a huge fail, and I felt like a complete moron, because I knew better. |
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