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Chipout around Rosette
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46291		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dan K [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Chipout around Rosette
Hey I was a little sloppy when excavating my first rosette channel. I tried using an offcut from the scraps of the soundboard to fill it and I didn't do a great job.
My thought is I could take out a bigger section and try again, but I'm not too thrilled with my first efforts and don't want to make a bigger eyesore. My other line of thinking is turning this into a creative design but would like some advice first.

Thank you
Dan
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I don't think you want to make the rosette any bigger (a typical fix) but you might consider an inlay like a butterfly or frog or something???

If you want to try offcuts to fill then I recommend you practice on scrap. It can be done so it is hard to see but it takes some practice.
Author:  Greg B [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
To me, a bigger rosette or a do over is the only option. When I see random inlays, I see mistake cover up. That said, a possible option would be to go with a really big sun/starburst inlay rosette like you see on Mexican guitars, but obviously this isn't to everyone's taste.

You could try grafting in a chip from the same soundboard if only for practice. Use hide glue, and obviously be sure to line up the grain lines.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I agree with Steve. You can't really make it bigger without throwing the aesthetic of your original design off too much. A decorative inlay is probably the way to go especially if you can think of something that goes well with the overall fee/design of the instrument. If you are worried about messing that up further, consider an inlay that is a circle and matches a standard drill bit size ;)

I remember seeing some rosettes that I think were called medallion rosettes or something like that. Maybe a google image search for that term will provide some inspiration.

<edit> I just did an image search and didn't see any, they must have been calling them something else. Sorry.
Author:  hermit [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Greg B wrote:
Use hide glue

I'm sure the pun was unintended, but......

[clap]
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I'd remove the filler piece, clean up the void, and fill it with finish.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Been there done that and unless you fix it with some sort of design trick it will drive you crazy for the rest of your life owning that guitar. Only an expert would be able to hide that with hide glue, pun intended, and even then it would be visible. Good luck.

Oh and just in case you don't know yet, the trick is to score the outer and inner diameter of the rosette with a very sharp tool. I use a brand new exacto blade and the Popsicle stick trick to score the lines then rout out the waste.
Author:  Dan K [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Thank you everyone for the responses so far.

Steve, Greg & Bryan: I don't want to change the rosette that much, but I would rather look at a creative design knowing it's covering up a mistake instead of staring at the mistake.

Dan: I'm planning on french polish as a finish. Any things to make sure of or avoid if I take this route?

jfmckenna: exactly what I was thinking. I did score but as I was getting closer to the bottom of the channel I got pretty sloppy with my chisel form and well...new thread material was born.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
You have some decisions to make. Don't know if you plan on making more guitars or not. Basically, I'd say you have a couple of options. You should evaluate the rest of the box as to it's quality. If the back and sides are quality and it is built well, rip off the top and make a new one. Many have saved guitars that way. If you are planning on making more, or if the back and sides are not up to snuff, leave it as is and just finish it. You should expect to learn a lot that way.

I have redone tops for a lot less than that. Once I just didn't like the color of the purfling. Of course the back and sides were BRW, so that had something to do with it. Something else to consider in the future is that if both sides of the top are good, you can save a top by flipping it over and trying the rosette again. You glue a thin ring of spruce over the bad rosette and use the other side.

One more thing to consider is that VERY rarely can you fix something twice and expect it to come out well.
Author:  kencierp [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Haans really did sum it up --- I'd add that there is no finishing process (with the exception of opaque paint) that is going to hide any of the flaws small or otherwise --- in fact, the gloss or even satin finish is going to magnify the defects ten fold.
Author:  hermit [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I had a furniture repair person once defy me to show where the repair he made was even though I knew where it was when he started. The guy was that good. Basically he filled it in and painted it to match the existing grain. Of course you run into the problem of finish compatibility. Just throwing it out there as another avenue of thinking. Good luck whatever route you take.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
This is what first guitars are for. You make mistakes and learn from them, and then make slightly fewer (hopefully different) mistakes on the second one, and so on..... It can be a folly to keep chasing a solution for every error when it might be better to live with it and move on. I keep my first one around just to remind me of the inlay and bracing lessons I learned. Also it sounds good and is fun to play, and a better guitar than many factory products - just cosmetically imperfect.

If you really want to chase the holy grail of a perfect first guitar you probably need to heed Haans advice and redo the whole top

Power routers have a great tendency to tear out the edges of the rosette channel. Try using a grammel to score a clean line on the outside and inside of the channel, then using the router to remove the stock between the lines. Also seal the grain with shellec before cutting the channel. But it is still easy to stuff it up.

If you want to add more inlay to extend out of the circle and cover that spot, search for images of some of the rosette designs of Michihiro Matsuda for inspiration.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Yea, I knew a guy like that too. He fixed all the broken furniture when I worked in a furniture store. He was magic, and the old codger was dying from COPD. He had a hack you wouldn't believe, and you could see the brains leaking out his ears, cause he couldn't put two good sentences together in a row. He was always " finish stoned". I'm sure he is quite dead now, but the guy really could French polish and knew every trick about furniture repair.

One thing he could not do however and I have never seen anyone that could, is hide mistakes on clear finished wood. He knew it and would not work on anything that was exceptionally clear. As Ken said, short of a black face (instrument) there is nothing to be done that way.
Author:  Dan K [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Oh I've got many lessons to learn about building guitars and I'll be happy to apply the knowledge from these mistakes on the next one. I think I will move forward with this one as is or design something to go over it. I know myself and I know I'll be upset looking at that gouge, but there are still many other flaws (some subtle, some not so subtle) in the box so it will serve as a good reminder down the line. I'm hoping that I will at least come away with a guitar I enjoy playing and one that will inspire me to do better work.

I really appreciate all the input so far. Thanks.
Dan
Author:  JSDenvir [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Move on. And you'll be able to make a whole new set of mistakes on your next one :-)

Eventually, you get to the point where you're the only one who knows where the mistakes are.

Steve

And BTW, looks pretty good for a first guitar. Well done.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Mark Mc wrote:
Power routers have a great tendency to tear out the edges of the rosette channel.


This may be true for some routers or bits but just so that Dan isn't discouraged from considering taking that route in the future if he's so inclined I would point out that a router can work just fine. I use the StewMac downcut inlay router bits in a Bosch Colt for my rosette channels and always get nice sharp edges with no tear out so using a router shouldn't be ruled out as an option for making clean rosette channels.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I agree. Routers can do a very good job. The channels for the rosette in this thread were cut with a Bosch Colt and a 1/8" spiral downcut bit, without scoring with a gramil first, and it all worked out fine:

viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46253

Put a coat or two of shellac on the rosette area of the top the day before you want to cut the channels. Be mindful of the direction of the cut; it sometimes makes a difference. Make sure the elements of the rosette are neither too big nor too small for the channels (a bit of a judgment call). Use a sharp, clean bit. Glue in with hot hide glue.

The first few guitars are where you learn how to do things. Imperfect cosmetics on functional guitars are just fine for those first few. Expecting to build one guitar and have it turn out flawless is asking a lot.
Author:  Dan K [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
One day I'm sure I'll cave and buy a router and a setup for many different processes. This was my first real step into inlaying anything in wood and while I'm sort of pleased with the overall outcome, I'll definitely be sure to be more careful with my chisel when touching the top. Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

Dan
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
SteveSmith wrote:
I don't think you want to make the rosette any bigger (a typical fix) but you might consider an inlay like a butterfly or frog or something???

That's what I'd do. I put animal inlays in the upper left corner even when I don't have a specific reason for it :)

Another possibility would be to make it a left handed guitar and cover the chip with a pickguard.
Author:  Dan K [ Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I've seen yours Dennis and I think they're excellent, it makes me want to throw traditional and symmetry out the window. I've really got to think about what I'll want to put there or it'll just be as is.
This will be my main player for awhile. and I'm not gonna relearn guitar :-)
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
This thread highlights one of the quirks of online instrument making fora. In almost all respects, the internet has been a godsend for people wanting to get started in the craft. I know I wouldn't be making guitars without all the info and encouragement I received from the internet communities. There is one small downside that we beginners and hobby guys and gals fall into. We get to rub elbows with A TON of really great makers and see some truly wonderful instruments. It is inspiring! We also see great efforts from ammeter makers that are so nice they make us think "wow I really can do this." But. . . it is all too easy to forget that your first several guitars probably won't be perfect. It took the pros a long time to get their chops up and the more "green" makers are not necessarily highlighting their mistakes in the pictures they post. It can make it hard to press on when things don't come out perfect. Everyone needs to decide where the line between starting over and pressing on is.

I'm not advocating for relaxing our standards when I say this but even the most flawed early build will impress the hell out of most of the people you show it to. The audience here is not the general public. When you finish a guitar and show it to your family, friends or co-workers you will get plenty of encouragement to keep it up. Each one will get better. Your family, friends and co-workers won't even notice they are getting better but you will.

I guess what I am saying is don't be too afraid of cosmetic mistakes, press on and earn the experience needed to reduce them. Challenge yourself but don't be unduly disappointed with your limitations.

The very best thing I ever did was to hook up with a group of instrument makers from all along the spectrum of experience and stand by my work mistakes and all. It seems most people point out their own mistakes even if they aren't very noticeable. It is comforting while at the same time pushes you to do better the next time.
Author:  Greg B [ Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Bryan Bear wrote:
But. . . it is all too easy to forget that your first several guitars probably won't be perfect. It took the pros a long time to get their chops up and the more "green" makers are not necessarily highlighting their mistakes in the pictures they post. It can make it hard to press on when things don't come out perfect. Everyone needs to decide where the line between starting over and pressing on is.


Good points, and you are right, we tend to forget our first after a while. Mine was smashed up (by me) 15 years ago, so no one would see it... ;) Unless someone happens to have a lot of chops from a closely related hobby, it's unlikely that a first guitbox is going to be anywhere near perfect. In a way, it's best to accept this, learn as much as you can, and move on.

That being so, a big revelation for me was realizing the importance of recognizing that sometimes things are screwed up beyond any hope of salvage, and it's time to suck it up, wave the white flag, and do it over.

As for what's the best choice here, it's a decision for the maker of course. An inlayed frog or whatever could work, but IMO it'd be best to be very bold about it, and maybe add a few, so it looks like you mean it. Otherwise, I like Haans' suggestion to flip the top, graft a laminate over the existing rosette, and use the other side. Since the guitar hasn't been bound yet, it's not going to be that hard to get the top off. Just a matter of re-bracing...
Author:  Dan K [ Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
I agree completely. For instance, all the builds from last years challenge were beautiful. I was especially impressed with the virtually "flawless" builds of the 3 and under category.
It is true that when I see the pictures of all the beautiful guitars on this forum, I want mine to follow suit. Not that bad to prying off the top, flip it over, rebrace and make a new rosette. I'm gonna finish this one, mistakes an all, and post on my doc-u-build so I can finally finish the ever elusive #1.
Author:  hermit [ Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Do a burst from the rosette out. ;)
Author:  Dan K [ Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chipout around Rosette
Haha suuure. Unless I can wipe in on by hand with my shellac flakes... :=)
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