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Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
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Author:  DriftwoodGuitars [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Hi everyone,
I have a question regarding an inlay that a client has asked me to do on one of my commissions. He has fallen in love with the Lion inlay seen below and wants that same one on the guitar I'm making for him. After searching for it online, I've found that it was originally done by Kevin Gallagher prior to his passing (and was one of his very last works.) I was planning on reaching out to the luthier directly about using it, but that's obviously not possible now that's he's no longer with us.
I'm wondering what the luthier community thought about me creating the same inlay on one of my comissions? Would this be frowned upon or seen as a compliment to the original creator? I've looked around for other lion pictures that would work for the purpose, but this one always seems to come back as the best looking. I appreciate any advise on this matter.
Author:  Aaron O [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Admittedly, I've inlaid artwork with permission from the artist (more specifically, photographer, hula dancer), which was a great experience. The "brochure" on the instrument named me as the inlay artist, named the photographer (with a copy of the original image), and of course the builder.

In this case, seems your client wants the inlay exactly as Kevin did it, because that's his reference. Personally, I think your client should give you the opportunity to present your interpretation of the inlay.

From a business perspective, you'll need to determine if this build is worth it. The fact that you're even asking this in an open forum already suggests that there's a potential issue that you're concerned with, or you wouldn't have asked. I think your gut already gave you your answer, but your business mind wants a different one. I may wrong, but I haven't had my 2nd coffee yet. My opinion.
Author:  Don Williams [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I think Aaron nailed it. Your gut is saying "No", and frankly you should listen to that voice. I agree that if the client wants a Lion on their fretboard, you should give them one, but not Kevin's. I have watched while the ukulele world got pretty upset that some inlays by one of the best inlay artist in the ukulele world has had his designs ripped off one by one, and it leaves a very sour taste in everyone's mouth.
Come up with something unique, not a copy. That's the best way to honor and respect the memory of Kevin as well as the whole community. I think your client would agree. If not, personally I would walk. But I can't speak for you only myself.
Author:  Don Williams [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Sorry for the bluntness... but that's just how I feel about it.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I'm sure you can come up with a design in the same vein that will satisfy your client.
Author:  Tim Mullin [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Copying without permission is often illegal and always unethical. Mr Gallagher's creative property is still owned by someone -- it didn't enter the creative common on his death -- so you need to negotiate with his estate -- and get it in writing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Author:  rlrhett [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I don't think the law is really the issue. The Estate of Mr. Gallagher is unlikely to sue you. The real question is, do you really want to make a counterfeit Gallagher?

Even if you identify the guitar as one of yours, the first impression is you made a copy. You don't want that, do you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
When I was an undergrad student just getting into building, Kevin was a great friend to me. I had done some artwork with a similar perspective of the lion's face, and when Kevin was developing that inlay, he told me he liked the perspective and asked if I'd mind if he did something similar. He clearly took it to a new level, and 50 stories higher. I'm sure you could contact his family and ask if you could do your own derivative adaptation of it.
Author:  DanKirkland [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I'm no inlay artist, my thoughts would be that you could phrase it to your customer something along these lines.

"That inlay really is great, however if I did an exact copy I don't think it would be appropriate to copy someone elses work, Is there another design or motif I can use to inlay on your guitar?"

With phrasing along those lines, you are politely turning down the work to copy the inlay and at the same time allowing him to make a choice that benefits you both.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
With your skills, Chris, I don't think coming up with your own design will be any less impressive than Mr. Gallagher's.

Alex
Author:  James Orr [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Alex Kleon wrote:
With your skills, Chris, I don't think coming up with your own design will be any less impressive than Mr. Gallagher's.

Alex


^ Seriously!
Author:  Rod True [ Sun Aug 07, 2016 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
My $0.02, you could contact Andrew Gallagher to talk to him about it. As you can see, he's quite accomplished in the Lion of Judah inlay which Kevin crafted. Maybe you could commission him to do the inlay for you, that way he get's the props and there is no dilemma.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... ostcount=1
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Kevin was a friend to many of us and a mentor to some here even providing in person instruction to some of our friends here who are still here.

I remember that inlay, the Africa guitar, the picture of a very tiny child's hand in a much larger adult hand, and of course when Kevin passed and a picture or two of him at that time too. Very sad, very, very sad.

Two things are on my mind. First what we might be able to do and even get away with should NOT be a consideration or it wouldn't be with me.... Regardless of Kevin's passing his intellectual property remains at least ethically his in my view and likely technically and legally his as well. Prior art you know.... Permissions should be obtained from the family and I would even couch it as a "tribute" and then actually make the resulting guitar a tribute to Kevin if I built it.

I also would not build it or copy the inlay.....

The second consideration is whom ever is commissioning this seems clueless to what a Luthier does and is. We are NOT some cheap, import copy f*ctory that steals IP at will and makes fake copies of it. It's OK to do a copy of something like a D-41 (in a limited sense) etc. but Kevin died tragically and many of us knew him and were friends with him. If I had and I used to have when I was building a person wanting me to do an exact copy of someone else's work I would tell them to take a hike and show them the door. I did a lot of that too with the sorts that prey on new builders and want a 9 string weird arse thing that no one else would build them and then wanted it for peanuts too.

Any way the client is flirting with a line that I find personally insulting wanting to copy and steal the IP of others... The client is also misunderstanding what we do and that we have our own creative sides and don't need to copy the work of others.

The possibility that you could get away with it would never enter my mind and I fail to see why this would ever be a consideration.

If you did want to proceed get permission from the family and maybe find out a few things about who Kevin was and make this a tribute to him so that those of us who were his friends.... don't get pissed off too.

Kevin's faith was paramount to him and so too was his family. He had kids and they were struggling to get by when Kevin died. Perhaps this could be a good thing if the buyer agreed in advance to donate to Kevin's family.... and of course you sought and received permission.
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
It would seem as though Mr. Orr and Mr. True have found the nub of the thing - give credit where it is due and ask that those with an interest in what might legally be an owned piece of intellectual property to assent to the scheme and participate if willing. This approach seems quite common in guitar building, with the Smith/Manzer Wedge suggesting that - failing any claim of interest or participation from the estate or heirs - you at least credit the work as being the Gallagher Lion of Judah.

Mr. Orr's mention of his artwork as point of departure for Mr. Gallagher's efforts also suggests another course to steer - use both as an origin for a new journey beyond the antecedents. The notion of intent comes into play here - a minor alteration in line or shadow or material may be interpreted as a poorly executed copy, while a fresh interpretation is seen both as an homage to the earlier work and a voyage beyond it.

Any endeavor of this nature risks both condemnation and accolades; some appropriate and respectful actions to serve Mr. Gallagher's memory may mute the criticism of those prone to the taking of offense, while something new and fresh - but still drawing inspiration from the same wellspring - seems like the surest path to add something original to the craft.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I would never have this problem since that level of inlay is way beyond my pay grade ;)

But I still would not do it. It's not like someone wants the Mona Lisa on their fretboard, that's common place now. But that is a unique work of art that should be left as such IMHO of course.

I had a guy want me to build an exact copy of a certain brand name bass and I simply told him I cannot do it. That was the end of that ans we reached an agreement on another shape that would not steal from an original design.

I bet your customer would understand and appreciate that.
Author:  Woodie G [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Is this truly an ethical dilemma, where the choices are between two or more ethically satisfactory and complaint alternatives, or is it simply a choice between one ethically valid alternative and one commercially attractive, ethically questionable alternative? When cast in that light, there appears to me to be only one valid choice here for any person claiming a moral character.
Author:  DriftwoodGuitars [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Thanks for the input guys. I've recomended to the client that we go in a different direction with the inlay. I always offer an inlay of the customers choosing to be put on all of my guitars, and in doing so, I tell the client to look online for ideas, and that is how he came to find this particular one. I in no way ever look to copy or rip off other builders, and I know for a fact that the client was not asking me to Copy the guitar as a whole. He simply fell in love with this work and I figured I'd ask the community what the protocol is. I have always taken pride in creating unique inlays and I'll keep on driving down that path.

I would say that it's a stretch to suggest that my client doesn't know what it is that a luthier does. He simply did as I asked, and that was to find something that he might like to have inlayed on his guitar. In this case he found a picture of an already made inlay on a guitar and simply asked what my opinion was on doing it. I feel like I was doing the right thing in asking you folks here on what to do. I never saw this as a "money grab" or a chance to take advantage of another's work. I simply wanted to know what other builders do in this case. Sorry if some of you saw it as me trying to take advantage of Mr. Gallaghers work. That's simply not the case. I hope my work speaks for itself in its artistry and originality, but I also hope my forsite to ask such a question goes to show my integrity.
Author:  johnparchem [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
This is an interesting discussion. To be clear, none of my questions are meant to be rhetorical I would love to hear the discussion. I see so much derivative work in guitars. Many inlays unique to guitar inlays have other sources for inspiration. When does an image like the following implemented as an inlay become owned guitar IP?

Attachment:
Lion of Judah Worship Background sm.jpg


If another luthier went back to the same source and created their own is that OK?

Mapping popular images to wood inlays is common and for many this image is easily recognized and has religious connotations. Can it really be considered IP of a single luthier?

Personally if I had anywhere close to the talent of Chris I might shy away from adding an element that is considered unique to a single luthier. I am not so sure it is an ethical issue.
Author:  Imbler [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
I can tell I am in the minority (often the case), but I see absolutely nothing wrong with contacting the estate and asking permission to use the inlay. I suspect they would be flattered, and agree to it. It isn't like the OP is going to screenprint it on a cheap guitar and sell thousands of them. It is for a one time hand made guitar.

Of course, if they say no, then honor their request, but I'd be surprised if they did,
Mike
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
johnparchem wrote:
When does an image like the following implemented as an inlay become owned guitar IP?


The short answer is that it's infringement if somebody copies something you hold the copyright to. If the other person can see your work in any kind of way (on the internet, for example), copying is going to be inferred if they did something, "substantially similar." The test for that essentially centers around whether or not an ordinary person would think they copied. It's more nuanced than that, but that's a good basic run-down.
Author:  AndyB [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
One can certainly inlay a lion ... that's like inlaying a tulip or any other item. One way to do this is to find an original work, as inspiration, and create a drawing which depicts the lion. If the client wants the exact thing, Rants aside, this is not about religion or defining what a luthier is or isn't - you get to pick who you are and what you do - not someone else. Best of luck and please show us what you end up inlaying!

Nice explanation, James - you have a way of distilling what is a rather complex legal issue into straightforward lay terms. Reminds me of my attorney, who has the gift of distilling such subjects for the consumption of us mere mortals. Oh, and nice drawing ... I think I'd be asking you if I could use your drawing as the basis!

Andy
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Hesh wrote:
The client is also misunderstanding what we do and that we have our own creative sides and don't need to copy the work of others.


And if ANYONE has a creative side my friend, it is you.

I would however love to see someone pay tribute to the man who provided my favourite blind player with the guitar he thought best for him, via inlay. That would be cool.

Inspiring thread Chris.

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  RogerC108 [ Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Rod True wrote:
My $0.02, you could contact Andrew Gallagher to talk to him about it. As you can see, he's quite accomplished in the Lion of Judah inlay which Kevin crafted. Maybe you could commission him to do the inlay for you, that way he get's the props and there is no dilemma.

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/foru ... ostcount=1


This is a fantastic idea. Besides getting your client exactly what he's looking for, it would help Kevin's legacy live on as well.


DannyV wrote:
I would however love to see someone pay tribute to the man who provided my favourite blind player with the guitar he thought best for him, via inlay. That would be cool.


I'm assuming you're referring to Doc Watson? If so, wrong Gallagher.
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Could be Blind Melon Chitterling...though I am not certain at what point he would have adopted a Gallagher guitar as his preferred instrument, unless the Gallagher in question was the fellow with the mallet...and who knew he had so many talents?
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethical dilemma with an Inlay
Pretty sure this is a different Gallagher than the one who made Doc Watson's guitar. That was Don Gallagher I believe.
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