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| Neck question http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48203 |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Neck question |
So I began a guitar a few years ago, working from the Cumpiano book. I got as far as getting the neck "in the rough" (heel wood glued up, attached to neck blank, headpiece glued on). I also got the top and back jointed and rough cut (and mostly thicknessed). Nice piece of bear claw spruce and EIR. My question: now that I'm getting set up to continue with it, reading ahead in the book, noticing that the neck is to be attached using tapered pins. Just wondering what folks' experience is with that? Does it work as advertised? How difficult is it to make the pinning tongs? |
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| Author: | George L [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Colleen, Welcome to the OLF! You are not alone in wondering about that methodology. Even Cumpiano has moved on from that approach.  Here's a link to his new way of executing the neck joint: http://www.cumpiano.com/#!an-improved-n ... oint/c1umc Good luck and I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress. |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Thank you! I thought I remembered something like that, in fact I still have the barrel-and-bolt hardware I bought a while ago for it. Thanks for the reminder (and the link!). I started the project about 5 years ago, but it got shelved due to life getting in the way. Just now in the process of getting my workbench set up again (in a new location), and finding all the stuff that was packed away and mostly sat in the garage for the past few years. One reason I stopped where I did is that I got the truss rod made and installed, but after the cap was glued on, I discovered I'd installed it upside down! (no, not with the nut at the head end, but with the end cap pointing in the wrong orientation) I hadn't cut the tenon, and seeing this link, I'm glad! |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
And BTW, I started this project after successfully completing my first violin, and beginning on my second, so I'm not a complete neophyte. But I'll probably have a ton of questions. Planning on completing the neck including fingerboard and frets before starting on the body. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Hi Collen, nice to see you here. Are you building a classical? |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Hi Colleen, and welcome! If you have a ton of questions, you've come to the right place! There are a whole bunch of experienced and nice people here, who are always ready to help! Alex |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Joe Beaver wrote: Are you building a classical? No, I'm building the steel-string option as a gift for one of my sons. |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Alex Kleon wrote: Hi Colleen, and welcome! If you have a ton of questions, you've come to the right place! There are a whole bunch of experienced and nice people here, who are always ready to help! Alex Thanks! Looking forward to getting to know everyone. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
I kind of used Cumpiano also. I didn't use the pinned neck either. I liked the idea of a bolt on neck better. One thought on finishing the neck and fingerboard first, I would hold off on attaching the fingerboard to the neck. Once the body is done you'll need to work on the neck/body joint getting the centerline straight and the neck up/down angle right. That is much harder with the fingerboard in the way. |
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| Author: | Rocky Road [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
As you already noted when you followed the link to Cumpianos link regarding the neck attachment he has gone to a bolt on. The pinned necks are difficult to remove and repair. The bolt on has become widely used and accepted. It is what I used from guitar one to now my eleventh, and learned much of what I know ( still climbing that curve) from Cumpianos excellent book. He has or will be very soon publishing a revised version. Glad to have you here. The depth of knowledge here is immense and the contributors are generous. Have fun building! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Quote: One thought on finishing the neck and fingerboard first, I would hold off on attaching the fingerboard to the neck. I would certainly agree with this caution. Also, I suggest that you research other "bolt on neck" attachment methods -- there are a gazillion fine guitars out there that have the neck attached using threaded inserts or hanger bolts, in my view both systems much more simple to fabricate. If going with the George's idea -- note that the "long"tenon length is very important, the failures I've seen and read about stem from the condition where the pressure on the threaded barrel caused the end grain in the tenon to collapse. I think I recall reading threads on this forum related to that situation/subject. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
I built a couple of guitars with the C&N method but never did that complicated neck joint. The other thing I don't think that book addresses very well is the neck angle. It does indeed go into how to measure for it but not really how to achieve it. The cork shim method is jut not very reliable imho. It's probably better to build a work board like a traditional solera or at least use some balsa or Masonite or something like that instead of the cork shim. I still build on open work boards but the work boards I use have all the angles and arches in them that takes the guess work out of getting the neck angle right. |
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| Author: | Colleen_M [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Good points, thank you. One of the reasons I post stuff I'm planning to do is to see if anyone would suggest something different. That's been helpful to me in the past. I can see I have a bit more planning to do. |
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| Author: | Rodger Knox [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
I started with Cumpiano's method, and after 16 years and 20 guitars my method is still pretty similar. The major difference is I use an outside mold, and I highly recommend it. Check out the Builder's Challenge threads, they go back several years and there's quite a few different methods documented. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
One of the dangers, though, in mixing in other methods of building is that you can wind up with an irreconcilable discrepancy between the methods. Just be aware of how veering away from the step-by-step method outlined by Cumpiano and Natelson can have an effect, plan and think ahead, and you should be fine. I built my first guitar following the Cumpiano and Natelson book, including the pinned neck method (the online update had not come out yet). It was a valuable experience. I do many things differently now, but some things I still do "by the book." |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
Yep, the barrel bolt joint is a good one to start with. Make sure you include the cross grain reinforcements on the tenon, as described on the page George linked. I am a fan of the book. I've made quite a few changes to process, but it is what I started from. I don't use any workboards or forms at all. Just bend the sides on a hot pipe, glue to the soundboard with dentellones, and then add the back linings. My method for setting the neck angle is to glue the back on with spool clamps while the neck is attached, and lay a straightedge along it and check the gap at the bridge location. If it's not quite right, remove the spool clamps around the upper bout and pull the neck forward or back a bit while putting the clamps back on. That drags the headblock along with the neck, keeping the upper bout coplanar with the neck surface so the fingerboard extension will lay flat on the soundboard. The method he describes in the book results in basically the same thing, just using a jig on the workboard to hold the headblock at the right angle without having the neck attached. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
To follow a given procedure all the way through the process is good advice. But I have to say that I purchased this publication after I knew how to build acoustic guitars -- and even though I found the book interesting (the design commentary) I did not adopt a single construction process or procedure outlined. I found the methods to be error prone and not as repeatable as those we were already using. While they certainly do not go into the same amount of detail, I believe the books written by Sloane, Young and Kinkade get to the heart of scratch building in a focused format highlighting the more traditional hobby and industrial methods of construction used today. Of course each with its own set of flaws -- in my opinion Kinkade's is the best but he too misses the boat regarding neck set angle -- close but no cigar. |
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| Author: | joshnothing [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
All I can say is I wish I had the Gilet/Gore publication when I started. It's the only book I've found with sufficient detail devoted to neck angle and a repeatable process to get it right, which is so often the biggest challenge for first time builders. And so critical to get right. Their process is more jig-heavy than that of other authors - in effect they take you straight to where you will probably end up one day anyway: a shop full of carefully thought-out specialised jigs to tackle the more challenging parts of the process with speed and precision. Agree with Ken that Kinkead is also good - although his book is less in depth in some areas, it's also probably far less intimidating for nervous first timers and a great way to dive in without beginners having their minds blown. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Neck question |
I think it is good to soak up one method before learning a lot about other methods, whichever method you start with. That way, as you learn more, you can make better informed decisions about what is going to work best for you. For me, the beauty of the Cumpiano and Natelson book is the detail, and its minimal (relatively speaking) reliance on special tools. It really does spoon feed you all the little stuff, and you spend less on tools to get that first guitar made. The downside, of course, is that you have to come to the project with some woodworking skill (at least a little) and some tolerance for the drudgery of some low tech methods of doing things that many of us have chosen to leave behind as we move to guitars 2, 3, etc. No offense to Trevor Gore at all, because I think his books are incredible, but there's a lot for a beginner to absorb in those books, and I would not want to start there if it were my first guitar. To each her/his own. I owe Cumpiano and Natelson a huge debt for getting me started in this obsession. |
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