I only found one reference to scalloped braces on a size 5 and it was not an authoritative source. And, as Ken noted, the early ones were pre-scallop. So now I'm leaning toward tapered. Top is redwood by the way.
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| Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48258 |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
I'm getting ready to brace the top on a size 5 that will be Terz tuned. I would like some input from those of you that have built these or something around the same size. This one is base on the LMI Antes 3/4 size plans so is X braced with 2 finger braces (one each side), 1 tone bar and an upper-transverse brace. No popsicle brace. At the moment I'm leaning towards scalloped with 1/4" width for the braces. The plans show tapered braces. Has anyone here had their hands on an original? Were they scalloped or tapered? Any measurements? Also, for those who have built one of these can you share your bracing widths, whether you used scalloped or tapered, and what you thought of the result? As always, I appreciate the input. |
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| Author: | Casey Cochran [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
I believe they are tapered. I built one to use as a backpacker to be tuned standard and went pretty thin everywhere trying to save weight. I also scalloped the 1/4" braces. With medium strings it sounds much better than a Martin backpacker but certainly doesn't have the full bodied tone of a larger guitar. If I were to build one for terz tuning I think I would taper the braces. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
I believe those guitars had much Stauffer influence in the design stage. So pre-scallop era. http://www.maurysmusic.com/claire_s_guitar_specs |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
I only found one reference to scalloped braces on a size 5 and it was not an authoritative source. And, as Ken noted, the early ones were pre-scallop. So now I'm leaning toward tapered. Top is redwood by the way.
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
Here's some very good info: http://www.earlymartin.com/ |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
Casey, hard to beat first-hand experience. Have you tried Terz tuning on yours? |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
Ken, thanks for the link. I reviewed that ebook during my research but must have gone through too quickly. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
We have had four built in this shop - two commissions and two student instruments - three were scalloped with single fingers and tone bars per the notes and template. The latest was tapered with single finger and tone bar. I'll ask the boss about the differences, but I know the earlier guitars were considered to be wonderful sounding instruments, based on their owner's comments (all three have been to the shop during my tenure here...no issues with guitars). I like the mermaid guitar best (scalloped bracing) - made for another student's niece...mermaid inlay on fret board and carved sea shells on bridge...Lutz spruce top, red spruce bracing, curly anigre sides and back, and macasser ebony board and bridge. We build these smaller guitars with less stiff tops - usually the culled, softer Lutz tops that are judged to have some issues for use with larger guitars. Also keep in mind that Martin built the Size 5 continuously from at least 1898 through 1989, and then from 1999 on, so the same sort of changes seen in other Martins might reasonably be expected for the Size 5 instruments, to include bracing adjustments, side tapes, truss rod changes, and all of the other minutia that the boys in the shop seem to spend so much time obsessing over. We have a stock of Martin Size 5 double action truss rods we use in new Size 5 and the 00-sized guitar-bodied octave mandolins - something to consider if they are still available from Guitarmaker's Connection at Martin. We build for three stringing schemes - for standard E to E tuning, we assume medium or true medium stringing; for terz (G to G; minor third rise in pitch of all strings) tuning, we string with lights or customs lights and see no real change in setup. For high or Nashville stringing, we use the octaves from a set of D'Addario EJ-39 medium gauge strings...makes it nice for a customer exploring the instrument, as we can make up two sets of strings - a standard light gauge set and a light gauged Nashville set - from one string pack. The Size 5 has a lovely chiming voice when high-strung and in terz tuning. One of our customers that picked up the shop's first mahogany and Lutz Size 5 seven years ago has recorded quite a bit with it and loves the ability to double and fill with an instrument that has such a different, distinctive voicing...so unlike a standard doubled part or the jangle of a 12 string. Some of my dad's favorite old country recordings featured Marty Robbins on his Size 5 - if you listen carefully, you can hear the instrument's unique voice on many of his recordings. I think we wore out at least one copy of 'Gunfighter Ballads and Trails Songs' and a few other Robbins LPs when we were kids. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
SteveSmith wrote: I'm getting ready to brace the top on a size 5 that will be Terz tuned. I would like some input from those of you that have built these or something around the same size. This one is base on the LMI Antes 3/4 size plans so is X braced with 2 finger braces (one each side), 1 tone bar and an upper-transverse brace. No popsicle brace. At the moment I'm leaning towards scalloped with 1/4" width for the braces. The plans show tapered braces. Has anyone here had their hands on an original? Were they scalloped or tapered? Any measurements? Also, for those who have built one of these can you share your bracing widths, whether you used scalloped or tapered, and what you thought of the result? As always, I appreciate the input. Steve. David Bingham one of our group in Knoxville has a early 40's size five (I re-glued the bridge) give him a shout and we can check it out at the next meeting. I believe he keeps in in standard tuning with mediums. |
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| Author: | Casey Cochran [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
SteveSmith wrote: Casey, hard to beat first-hand experience. Have you tried Terz tuning on yours? I have not. I cut weight everywhere including cedar for the neck and block and Carbon fiber instead of ebony or truss rod. With Stealth tuners it weighs 1lb 14oz. There is a bit of belly in standard tuning so I have not tried terz tuning. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
Woodie, Thank you for the information - I'll be looking forward to see what the Boss says. Greg, looks like our meeting this month is cancelled - top will braced before the next meeting but not a big deal. Maybe I can ask him to bring it by for the Oct meeting - I would like to get a tracing of the pick guard. Casey, I'm using a 21.3" scale which is just the Martin 25.4 lopped off at the third fret so the tension for Terz tuning should be the same as one of my standard guitars. Sounds like I shouldn't plan on going crazy light but should be able to go a bit lighter since the soundboard is so small. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
SteveSmith wrote: Casey, I'm using a 22.3" scale which is just the Martin 25.4 lopped off at the third fret so the tension for Terz tuning should be the same as one of my standard guitars. Sounds like I shouldn't plan on going crazy light but should be able to go a bit lighter since the soundboard is so small. You can probably use lighter gauge strings as well. According to my experience with steel strings ranging from 15" to 36", you need approximately 1 pound of tension per inch of length in order for it to feel tight enough. Adding more beyond that gives more power, but it's not really needed since small instruments are naturally loud due to the low soundboard mass (provided that you get the stiffness reasonably low as well). I think either bracing style would work fine. My belief is that tapered bracing is better for instruments that are small relative to the lowest pitch you want them to make, because it lets you get the total stiffness lower without excessive deformation, which makes the resonant frequencies lower. But in the case of a Terz, you're not asking it to produce really low frequencies, so it's just a matter of which tonality you prefer. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bracing for Martin Size 5 or similar - Input Please |
Good points Dennis. I will try it with lights first although I use mediums on all my full-size guitars. I'll move to mediums if it needs the extra drive. If there is no clear-cut reason to use tapered bracing then my normal preference would be scalloped. |
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