Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm thinking the best place to get market questions answered is to go to the market and ask the potential customers and users of the products getting sold.
With USPS introducing the flat rate shipping some years back and the gameboard size box that works great for so many of our products. We have used them in certain packages, and would like to use them more. The online store and e-merchant software is not smart enough to know when a flat rate box can be used, and of coarse, is really only a good value for domestic US orders.

The question I have is regarding multiple size instrument packages. Surely builders make a range of size instruments. So lets say guitar. It is quite convenient for a builder to just buy dreadnought/jumbo size guitar tops and use them for everything , big and small. But for us, the larger boards that won't cleanly pattern the dreadnought, will pattern and OM, 00 or 000. get set aside, to hardly ever get looked at. I want to make more Flat rate value packs available, without overwhelming a customer with soooo many choices and product sku's to wade through. So I'm asking you folks for suggestions of packages.
Is a mixed sort package desired?
There can be any combinations of mixed grade- B's, #2's, #1's-1A ,2A, 3A, mixed size {jumbos, dreads, classical's, parlors], mixed sort[ light and full figured-Bearclaw/curl/quilt, or non-figured]. I would like to make bundles that are both good for our product inventory management, and GREAT for the customer.
For averages sake, out of 8 instruments, would a builder make 5 large body instruments and 3 smaller body, or 6 and 2?

Regarding flat tops, the flat rate box will hold 8 sets for sure, and if sanded to .150-.170"- 9 sets. We don't like to do too much sanding because, we leave ourselves open to loss from mold. This is rainforest country with 10' of rain per year. High humidity and moderate temps are perfect for mold spore to wake up. It can happen while on our shelves of our heated warehouse, so we like to keep meat in the boards, and just clean up for size uniformity for grading and for packing and stacking inventory .
So lets stick to 8 packs.

Other questions come to mind like- How many builders finish all 100% natural finish instruments, and how many do various finishes of sunburst, tinted and natural clear?
Another thing that comes to play, is how many will be full body and how many cut-away? Maybe these last 2 should get brought up at another time.

If you have thoughts to share of how this vendor could better serve you, I'm all ears.

Hey Brent, I've been very happy with the sets that I have gotten from you. I only make one size right now and I know others do the same for different reasons. I know some like OM size for value and for more abundance of materials in that size say compared to Jumbo sized BRW, Ebony or other hard to find in wide stock materials. Myself, I just don't like the look or feel of a dread and I learned on a classical, so the OM size is what I wanted to build for myself, with a wider neck (2") than is commonly found in Steel Strings. I have yet to have the urge to build anything else although I do vary the body depths. I may be an odd duck but I know pf several other builders that do the same.

That being said- I would be most interested in 5 a pack of Master grade OM Sized Sitka with 5 sets of brace wood if that could all fit in one parcel, if not- then something similar/smaller.

I will share my perspective. I don't know if it is indicative of the opinions of others.

I am a "one at a time" builder, not a small factory. I am not that prolific. Every single instrument I make, no matter what size, is a lot of work. The most expensive thing I put into each instrument is my time, not the wood. If I plan on making a OOO size guitar, I want to buy great wood that I know will work for that size guitar. If I build a uke, same thing. Jumbo, same thing, etc. I do buy some wood just to have around, but not willy nilly, every size under the sun. I tend to buy for the specific instrument I want to build next. I'm deliberate about that.

The idea of a grab bag of wood does not appeal to me, because it would mean buying a whole lot of wood at once, of various sizes that you, the seller, would prefer to not identify, measure and photograph individually. I am sure it would be a lot of good wood, but is it the wood I need? Is it the wood I need plus a lot of wood I don't need, at least not immediately, and maybe never?

I'm trying to describe why I feel that your idea of a grab bag would serve your interests more than it would serve the interests of builders like me. The grab bag would not give me the specific information I want about the specific pieces of wood I am buying, and it would force me to buy and carry inventory I might never have a use for. The only way this would tempt me is if it was shockingly inexpensive.

But that might just be me.

My most popular guitar is 14-1/4" wide, my baritone, and modified dreadnought are just under 16".

That said, I'd also like to talk about some tops.

Thanks, M

I'd guess that mixed bags would be unpopular. 8 packs of single types are good for higher volume builders, but low volume builders will want to pick and choose. The savings from the package deal will not make up for the unwanted tops in it. Maybe offer a mixed 8 pack as an item, where the customer writes in the special instructions what specific soundboard item #s they want in it?

My first half-dozen guitars were all different shapes and sizes--scattershot, if you will. At that point I concluded that for my work to improve I needed to focus on building multiples of one size, then another, and so on. This has taught me many things, one of which is that I like to have options to select from when pairing top and brace materials. For this reason it is unlikely that I will ever be buying mixed sets again. In other words, a package that contained multiple sets of similar dimensions would be most attractive to me. I suspect that I am not unique in this regard.

Edit: At premium prices, I like to see what I'm buying. At discounted prices I'd be less adamant about that, but I can't see myself being interested in a package that contains a mix of different levels of quality. I'd prefer a package that contained all AAA, for example.

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George :-)

This is not exactly the answer to your question but it might be helpful to offer a box of however many tops and matching bracewood fits in a box and offer prices for those packages. Say 3 tops and enough bracewood for 3 guitars (or whatever fits) at a set price for size and grade. Perhaps even discounted for sizes/grades you have in surplus. You wouldn't have to pull any inventory until it sells, just establish and list the price for different sizes and grades ($x for a box of OM sized a grade, $y for OM aaa, $z for dread aa. . .).

I don't think that will appeal to the pros or high volume makers but hobbyist and people new to the craft could benefit greatly. They would be able to build up their stock for the next several projects at an easily knowable price. They would then have some experience with you and your product/service and they may come to you first for future purchases as they progress.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Similar here.
I build classical and small-bodied steel string guitars (00-ish and under) so 7 1/4" of usable material per half will do it for nearly everything I build. I have bought bundles of 2A sets sight unseen (from High Mountain back when Shane would run those deals)...but only when the price was right. In those instances about half of the sets were of quality I was interested in using for tops. So it basically came out comparable to paying full price for those tops and getting a bunch of usable material for various reinforcements, bridge plates, even some low bracing thrown in...and that worked for me, never regretted those purchases.

Having said that, I'd only consider buying package deals sight unseen if the material all meets my size requirements and is all either 3A/+ at a moderate discount or all 2A/+ at a deep discount.

In my view grab bags only serve the seller.

I would suggest grading the less desirable material fairly and consistently and selling off in batches of five, ten, twenty for an unbeatable price. That's how I was buying Englemann (which I no longer stock) It worked for us because I knew every set was as ordered and we could plan and sell accordingly. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Mike, The best place for this dialog would be by phone or email. contact me via contact info posted in our web page

I think Ken may be on to it there.

My opinion is that bulk packs of the same grade/size are likely going to be more successful than a variety pack of different sizes/same grade. i would not bother with a "mixed" variety pack with all different grades and sizes...

There are a lot of us here who like to pick and choose through their available stack to find "just the one"... Since you the vendor can't often read my mind - a stack in my hand can often be just what the doctor ordered.

The next thing. I have had FAR better luck with bulk packs of "low grade" stuff than I have with bulk packs of high grade stuff because of my expectations.... Invariably - there are lots of reasons that tops get downgraded.. And most of those are not objectionable to me.... And vice versa... But - if I pay $400 for 10 tops - they all better be just what I want. For this reason - buying individual high grade tops has worked out much better than buying single low grade tops... This probably also has a lot to do with supply vs demand...

All that being said - I build a lot more small guitars than big ones... I could be talked into a bulk pack of very nice small guitar wood at a reasonable price...

Thanks

Well, maybe I'm a peculiar merchant. I take into consideration that I also wear a consumer/customer hat, and I feel it is my obligation to watch out for our customers best interest, if we want to keep a customer. And it's just good to treat others as one wants to be treated.
The flat rate gameboard box will hold 8 flat top guitar size sets and a stick of bracewood.. The biggest savings in this program is the postage, and the most bang for the buck per top for that postage.
Grade is a whole another thing. I'm leaning with you guys that would even consider multiple sound board purchases and have already put that in place for a number of specific sort/grade products.
I did make a mixed grade/size bearclaw sort that has been purchased a few times. But the biggest success has been specific grade and size packs. For as much dialog that I have received in this sampling of thought exchange, It surprises me that so many small body guitars are built in relation to the large body. Because we sell so few small body tops.. However our classical size non-figured sitka has dwindled, mostly because we just haven't been producing this year like years past. And so we haven't had the fall down from the larger tops cut to downsize and replenish that inventory. All of our customers I would consider at the higher end and custom. We have our customers that we send 50-several hundred or more per month or quarter of a grade and sort and don't have any issues. But those kind of sales have been in decline for the last 1+ years are really soft again this year. But very small luthier shop is what is and has always been what has kept us afloat, even subsidizing some of the other sales, like wholesale 20' & 40' shipping container loads of guitar block for soundboard production. Moving the log for lower to mid grade tops, that we just didn't have production capabilities to produce or warehouse. Now we do..
Yesterday I did post a Master Grade Archtop flat rate box, that saves a customer in the US $40 in postage, compared to the weighed box rate for zone 8 delivery, which is everyone east of Wyoming and south of San Fransisco.. I did a calculation the other day, and came up with a volume of 2.3 Million bdft of Large diameter Old Growth Sitka, that I/we have processed for soundboard production, 95% guitar - 1,910,000 guitar tops. over the past 22 years. I have, seen touched and cut a lot of sitka in our log yard and shops. I gotta get to work. Bye for now.

I think one thing that we would love to see here (Which has a side effect of druming up some business) is to post some pix of zoot and especially the zoot making process.... Often - all we see is the banner.... There are a LOT of folks here who are wood nuts.... We are interested in the tonewood making process - from log to top.... We love seeing pix of new logs coming in, you recovering them, billets being processed, etc.

There was another luthier forum once upon a time owned by a fellow who has since passed on.... One thing he did right was to post a lot of pix of the wood finding, recovering, sawing, and drying process. Many of us got a kick out of that stuff....

Lets face it - that's free marketing without having to pay a PR firm for fancy pants advertising production.... It keeps your wares and your name in front of us without having to say "Hey guys, buy my stuff"...

Thanks

I too would be more interested in a pack of all the same type, smaller or cosmetic flaw at a deeper discount.

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Pat

When I think about the way I currently prefer to buy tonewoods, I am reminded of the sketch on Portlandia where the couple is ordering chicken in a restaurant and they have a lot of questions for the waitress: is it local, is it organic, is it free range, how large is the free range area, etc. The waitress comes back with a complete dossier on the chicken in question: "His name is Colin, here are his papers."

I used to just order wood from LMI and trust that they would pick out nice pieces for me. But nowadays, suppliers (including the OP in this thread) have photos of each specific top, back & side set, neck blank, you name it. Dimensions are penciled on the piece and shown in the photo. A standard template is placed on the piece, or a standard outline has been penciled on the piece. Some even show photos of the end grain so you can see how vertical the grain is. As a "one at a time" builder, I feel better buying this way than buying a bunch of wood I have never seen. These days, if I am going to buy a bunch of wood I have never seen, it will have to be at a crazy discount, and not just to save on shipping. And I might not buy it even then. Why should I, when I can otherwise know a lot more about the wood before I buy it?

So, yeah, rather than buy a grab bag, I really do want to know the chicken's name before I eat him. The internet changes everything.

"So, yeah, rather than buy a grab bag, I really do want to know the chicken's name before I eat him."

When you buy chicken like that, often it's not the only thing that got plucked. I understand that for some the added value is worth the added cost.

I build many different kinds of instruments and often buy lower grade tops and cut around the "defects" to have a higher quality end product. Some tops' cosmetic down grades don't bother me (wide grain, uneven grain, color) if the tops are otherwise good, but I wouldn't want to pay a premium for them.

I like to share what we do. Most of The few visitors that come here from all over the world, are blown away with amazement after seeing what all goes into our soundboard production. From the acquisitions of finding our trees in the vast forest, to extracting the huge behemoths with our very limited collection of heavy equipment and getting them to our log yard. We have a Timber Jack rubber tired skidder. It's a just a winch packer for us. One doesn't take that kind of equipment off the road in this country. But we rig trees for lift and yard 10,000-20,000 pound logs to the road were I can grab them with my self loader log truck and it's mounted 20,000 # log loader... to then dissecting the log into block-reading ity very carefully to target payday fields and keep them whole for best possible recovery. to the actual dissection on the saw.. Then after. Most all that has been photographed and videoed and is posted in our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/AlaskaSpecialt ... =bookmarks and some on Instagram. Time prevents me from loading those pics here. because they would have to be re-sized or loaded to some other place with links. We just don't have that much time..

We are a full time soundboard producing company. Our family Annette, I, and my adult sons- Brent Jr and Ryan. We specifically target produce soundboards and associated products. A hardwood vendor marketing boards that sell for several hundred dollars, can take the time and post individual pics of each set, and may only have 30 sets. But that's not us. We have thousands of guitar and other soundboards of various sorts and grades and sizes, from just the 4 species of timber that grow locally. something like 270 Product sku's. We do take individual pics of our vary rare carbon dated, and only in the world, 2850 year old ancient Sitka. that is comparable in price and even more limited quantity than the rarest hardwoods.

We have been trying to get a new webpage and online store going for 2 years. We are not techies that know anything about that and I have wanted to hire someone that does do this stuff the build a new store that we can post multiple examples of sorts and grades. Then we have things in the way like building the factory for 2 years and this year the house fire that just takes our time and revenue resources...

So we do want the customer to be able to better see what they are buying. Of the 4000 customers we have sent product to in the 75 countries around the world, I'm gonna guess there has been 5-6 people that were pissed with what they received. One guy, because he thought the boards were junk because they weren't sanded completely, and left at .180 thickness. They would have completely cleaned up at .170. So as hard as we try, we cannot please everyone 100%. But we really do try..

Regarding pricing. Our grades are quite similar to all domestic manufacturers and custom builders standards. Every tree and every part of a tree is as unique as each of our finger prints.
But we do try to follow certain criteria. But looks do seem to be the most used grading rebric used. and I see lots of much better soundboard material get set aside, because it's the wrong color or texture than the customer perceives as quality. For the most important single board of an ACOUSTIC INSTRUMENT, I would think tone would be Paramount. but its not.
Anyway, all of our grades and sorts are priced quite reasonably. so if someone wants low cost but great tone, we have our #2 sort for $6 and our #1-1A for $14 individually and 10 in quantity. The same prices we sell to Breedlove and other manufactures domestic and intl. that purchase several hundred tops per PO. But if pretty and ararity is what your after, theres a cost because those 1 in a thousand or even 1 in 100 type sets, take a lot of production to find and produce.

Brent--

It sounds like the things you want to do to sell your wood, and the things I want to know before I buy wood, don't currently overlap all that well. That's OK. You should not lose sleep over that; I don't buy enough wood to keep anybody in business.

You started this thread because you wanted some feedback from the people who participate in this forum about a sales/marketing idea you had. You've gotten that feedback. I hope it is useful to you.

I will say that selling to small output builders is going to be different from selling to large manufacturers. It just is. In the end, everybody votes with their pocketbook. If you want small output builders to buy your wood, you probably should figure out what they want and how you can give it to them, whether you think it is wise or unwise for them to want it.

Yes, Priority flat rate box usage and what best to fill that particular box size with. I have gotten some valuable feedback about that, and other feedback that was a bit off subject, still about marketing, but that I still wanted to address, to help clarify who we are and aren't; and what we can and cannot do or justify doing as practical in relation to other types of suppliers. It's custom builders, hobiests, and other small builders that have kept us in biz for 22 years We are now a higher production outfit, but more so a higher production custom boutique kinda outfit too.
We are not the outfit that finds and cuts and markets one tree at a time.
I'll take this feedback and post some packages to help the customers save in postage while meeting the wants and desires regarding grade.

And Don. I used to stomp around those mountains in WV during the 60's, spending summers at my grandparents place in Cool Ridge. It's south of Beckley and Shady Springs. Related to The Packs and Lillie's of the area. The family still has yearly reunions at Beckley. but I haven't been back since 95.

While my post will pretty much ignore your query, I hope you will find it relevant in some sort of marketing fashion (hmmm...actually I have a degree in that pretty much).

As has been noted, this is a forum populated primarily by one time builders...people who aren't nearly as concerned about the bottom line...please note I'm not saying anybody wants to be ripped off or spend fortune...what I am trying to say is that a $10 or so upcharge/unit for the privilege of something a tad 'more' would probably not be an issue. I get the concept of if one is not 'prepared' for providing something 'special' it would be a money loser to go through a warehouse of inventory just to satisfy a small request, but perhaps your grading standards could be slightly modified to allow for a wider range of parameters than simply A, AA, AAA, Master?

Just a rambling, I admit

Mike, Thank you. We already do a lot of that for customers that we know or those that tell us what is more important to them. We have a Bedell sort which is an 1A/2A mix and they do a lot of shaded and tinted finishes, The Breedlove custom shop sort 3A/4A mix , the Santa Cruz sort. And since we have product from so many different logs and a log yard full of logs under a timber canopy, we have enough selection to target those criteria within the specific sort/grade. What I cannot do, is spend an hour going through a hundred sets and taking pictures , loading the pics into the computer to send for someone to pic "a top" from.

I have added numerous flat rate package deals to our online store, for a total of 18 packages. Includes quantity pricing were applicable. The biggest saving is the postage But I am also sticking in whatever bracewood will fit in the box as an added bonus. If anyone would like to see other packages, let me know.
http://www.alaskawoods.com/products.php ... _Customers.
I'm sorry to report that the flat rate box is not a GREAT DEAL for Intl. Customers. Intl. Customers are better served by the weighed postage as calculated through the regular shopping and checkout.

I just did some calculating with intl postage regarding these flat rate box deals. It runs $89-101 depending on destinations looked at, instead of the near $20 for domestic US. And to AU I see there is actually about a $7US savings.. not much, but it is a savings. To UK it's about a $10US Savings. When filling the FR box with sitka the shipping weight runs 14-16 pounds.

I checked your site and didn't see any small guitar tops packages at all...
Are they somewhere special?

Thanks