I did Mahogany and Rosewood.
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| Super Soft II http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48694 |
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| Author: | EddieLee [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Super Soft II |
I used Super Soft II for the first time. After bending the wood color came out very uneven. Has this been your experience? Does the uneven color sand out easily and cause no other problems? Thanks, |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
It should sand out. Which wood? Some of the colour leaches out (esp.with dark woods) but I can't tell after assembly/sanding etc. |
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| Author: | RustySP [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I tried SSII twice, the first time no problem, the last time blotches all over that were very hard to sand out, I pretty much gave up on the inside. To this day I don't know what caused it, operator error or something else. That discourages me from further use. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | EddieLee [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I did Mahogany and Rosewood.
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I've used SS II on rosewood, mahogany, claro walnut, and heavily figured bubinga and have not had any blotching. Could you describe the procedure you used to apply the SS II and how long you let it sit before bending? Did you bend using a hot pipe or a bending machine? |
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| Author: | EddieLee [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I sprayed the side with Super Soft and wrapped them in food wrap. I let that set over night. I am using a Blues creek bender and heating blanket. I believe this to be the procedure I have read describe in other posts. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Is food wrap plastic wrap? If so, I wonder if that might be a factor. Were the sides still wet with SS II after setting overnight? The procedure I use is based on this one from the Veneer Supplies web site: Use full strength. Apply by dipping, spraying, or brushing. Allow veneers to stand until the surface appears dry. Place veneer between two sheets of absorbent paper (paper towels, brown paper, or unprinted newspaper) and clamp it between two flat boards in a press or simply by placing weight on top. Allow 12 hours for the initial drying to take place. Remove from press and replace the absorbent paper. Re-apply pressure or weights. Replace absorbent sheets every 6 hours until veneer is completely dry. In my case, I lay a sheet of wax paper on the bench top (to keep the SS II off the bench), then a paper towel layer, then the sides (next to each other), another paper towel layer, another sheet of wax paper, and then I place a large wood billet (about 25 lbs) on top and leave it overnight. When I take it apart the next day, the wood is dry to the touch. I've found I don't need to do a second round of drying between paper towels as described in the web site method. |
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| Author: | RustySP [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
In my case I believe I spritzed the sides, wrapped them in paper towels and let them sit over night. The Veneer Supplies site does not mention using heat. I use a Fox style bender. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
We have been using SuperSoft 2 (SS2) in this shop for the last decade with good results on figured woods ranging from anigre to zebrawood. Although we have used SS2 as a veneer softener, we employ it primarily as a bending aid, so the quicker the material goes on, penetrates, and dries, the less opportunity for the wood's colorants and other soluble extractives to be transported about and the more unlikely any permanent staining. Instead of wrapping the wood after spraying, we stand the stock upright and lean against a handy cabinet (use a scrap of spruce between wood and floor to encourage drainage), and let the excess from the wet coat flow off. Don't wrap or otherwise impede drying, and there is no need for weighting the stock or other efforts to keep the side flat as we intend on bending the stock in any case. We don't use SS2 on rosewoods or ebonies - they don't need it and it's unlikely to penetrate very deeply in any case on most ebonies. The woods that benefit are highly figured woods, those that are problematic benders like anigre, and flat-sawn or rift cut stock, where SS2 minimizes cross-grain ripples (birds-eye and curly maple - often cut either flat-sawn or rift stay flat, as well as rift-sawn curly ash). When employing a Fox type bender/silicone heating blanket combination with stock that has been treated with SS2, we use a paper reservoir to hold the water needed for the bend, and to leach out any resins or extractives that are released. Even with rosewoods and ebonies, which we never treat with SS2 (unnecessary and potentially problematic for staining), the paper will suck up much of the resin that would otherwise end up baking onto the bending slats. As a bonus for avoiding the common practice of soaking the wood with water prior to bending (thus, adding an unpredictable amount of water to the bending package), we get just enough water to give a nice burst of steam for the thickness and species being bent...woods like mahogany, koa, and anigre get less, preventing fiber collapse on tight bends. The level of gloss seen on the wet paper is a good gauge of how much water is trapped in the paper, with the edge of the bench being used as a squeegee to remove the excess where needed. If using spring steel slats for greater support in tight cutaway bends, we use aluminum foil as a barrier between slat and paper reservoir to prevent rust and isolate the steel from the paper. As has been reported here and elsewhere, acacias such as koa can react with aluminum if in direct contact, but use of the paper reservoir and foil, as well as control of the amount of water in the bending package, prevents this issue. Also, avoid using a single sheet of paper or foil to wrap both sides of the wood - not only does the closed envelop trap moisture that would normally exit the bending stack from the edges in the course of the 35-40 minute drying cycle, but the paper and foil will bunch up in tight bends, marking the wood and interfering with maintenance of close contact between the stock and the slats used to support the side in tight bends. In terms of a short step-by-step: - Treat the stock with a wet coat of SS2; stand vertically and allow to dry (the wood's surface must be sensibly dry - the test is whether masking tape waist and end markers will stick to the stock - if not, give it more time). - Do not impede drying by wrapping or sandwiching the stock to maintain flatness - it is not necessary and can result in difficult-to-remove staining due to the extended opportunity for water and solvent-soluble resins and extractives to move about. - Optimum holding time between application and bending is 12 hours as Mr. De Rocher suggested, but the wood can be bent as soon as the stock is dry. The benefits of SS2 treatment appear to decrease with hold time beyond 12 hours - after 36 hours of drying, we do not see any noticeable benefit. Reapplying SS2 does not appear to be an issue. SS2 is baked out of the wood during the drying cycle, so not a factor in follow-on joinery or finishing activities. - Bend per usual, avoiding excessive staining by controlling the amount of water used in the bending package |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Cling wraps like Glad Wrap have oil on them. Maybe this had something to do with the staining. Alex |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Thanks for that Woodie G. I''ve been interesting in trying this stuff out for some highly figured mahogany that I'd rather not risk breaking. I assume you brush or spray it on both sides or is it good enough to just do on the inside? Then if there is any issue with staining it won't matter. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
We don't see staining attributable to SS2 unless the wood is bent while still wet with the stuff. We spray both sides with a standard spray bottle. The staining we see is usually mineral content in the water - we get that whether bending with SS2 or not, and it clears with a light sanding. |
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| Author: | EddieLee [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
In my notes I have to wrap in the cling wrap. Were I got that I do not know. Revisiting the procedure I see that was a mistake. Thanks again, |
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| Author: | Tim L [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I use SS they same way Woodie does and have never had a problem. The sides stand on edge to fully dry before bending. No water used during bending and a craft paper/foil sandwich. Craft paper does a relatively good job of catching the resin bleed and the foil isolates the wood from the metal slat. |
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| Author: | George L [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I've used it without excessive staining or discoloration: Sprayed both sides, left propped up overnight to dry, placed between sheets of craft paper, wetted both sides of the paper with water, bent in Fox-style bender. For what it's worth, I've also achieved perfectly satisfactory results following the method described by Cumpiano/Natelson, which is to soak the sides in hot water for a few minutes and then get straight to bending. |
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Probably using paper to soak extra SSII into the material helps for brittle. very wrinkled veneer, such as Carpathian elm burl. Like Woodie and others, I've just brushed SSII on to guitar wood and let it evaporate overnight. I had mottling on the one EIR set I used it on, but the discoloration sanded out. SSII works so well that it fooled me once. I used it to bend some curly maple binding, which worked very well. Two days later, the wood had sprung back a little, and--not realizing that with the SSII all gone the wood might be brittle-- I tried to bend it back to the right shape. Snap! |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I had the same issue with curly maple binding - it was relaxing after SSII then bending. I taped the bindings to a piece of scrap so they would hold their shape for the week or so it would take to get the box ready for bindings. |
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| Author: | BradHall [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I'm here to learn. I sprayed a heavy layer of SS2 on both sides of my Maroke set. I let it set for 12 hrs per instructions, wrapped in paper towels. It was dry when I tried to bend it on my hot pipe and I noticed no difference to my poor results with a wet shop towel slowly steaming on the pipe on my first attempt. In both cases, despite extreme caution, the sides cracked across the grain. I've never worked with Maroke before, and it did seem very stiff and resistant to bending. Admittedly I am trying to bend a very tight curve on a 00-28 build, which certainly contributed to the problems. Even after I had it successfully clamped in a mold overnight the sides cracked in multiple places. Totally ruined both pieces. Where did I go wrong? |
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| Author: | RustySP [ Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Thanks Woodie Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Quote: Totally ruined both pieces. Where did I go wrong? How thick were the blanks? Note that Martin thins their blanks to .078" -- So do we (KMG), like us Blues Creek bends many sets each month, in another current thread John Hall mentions that he is comfortable at .070" My gut tells me countless sets of material have be ruined not because of time, temperature, or procedure, they simply were much too thick to be bent. |
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| Author: | BradHall [ Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
I went with .80, a bit thick I suppose. This was highly " mottled ", very dense and stiff wood. I also have no temperature control other than how wet I keep the shop towels. Has worked well till the Maroke set. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Brad, I don't bend on an iron but I do know some pieces of wood just don't like to be bent. I also have some beautiful maroke that is very stubbone. I made a new bending machine, adding a waist blanket, and heat controller. That has improved my bending success greatly. Opps ! Excuse me. I had better find some wood to knock on..... |
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| Author: | Greg Maxwell [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
If you read through the SS2 posts in the archives, you'll see that there are many techniques that all seem to work well. IMO the instructions on the bottle are intended for flattening thin veneers, not for bending thicker wood such as guitar sides. I use SS2 this way and it works well with minimal staining: I soak the exterior of the wood with SS2 and wrap in Saran wrap. I do this in the morning. In the late afternoon I discard the wrap and wipe off the excess liquid, which helps to reduce or eliminate staining and blotching on RW or Cocobolo. Then I let the side air dry overnight. Next morning I make a sandwich of the side, craft paper, and foil. I bend using very little moisture in a Fox bender at 250-350 degrees. Most sides are .070 to .078 thick. I bent some very expensive Coco sides and binding in a cutaway recently using this method and everything came out perfectly with almost no staining. Works very well with heavily figured Maple also, and I skip the craft paper since Maple doesn't bleed resins. |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
In discussion with the boss this AM (I am waiting for the roads to clear - the highway is a sheet of ice from the end of my driveway all the way to the shop!), he reminded me that sides are really no different than braces in bending - stiffness is a function of the cube of the thickness and the width of the side, so a .085" thick side is nearly twice as stiff as that same side thinned to .070". Also worth noting is that for tight cutaways, only the area of the bend needs to be thinned to ease bending - on woods like coco and Brazilian, this is quickly done with a freshly sharpened cabinet scraper or a thickness sander (we use tape tags on the 'down' side of the stock to remind us to start rolling the drum up in depth when they reach the drum housing). One thing we've started doing over the past year is reducing bending temperatures on cocobolo to limit the depth of the discoloration due to oxidation. We've found that a temp of just 250 deg F peak is enough to allow bending, and 30 minutes of drying at 220 and a full cool-down to shop temp results in better color match to the back after cleanup. Once again, we have not found SS2 to be of any real use on rosewoods like Brazilian or cocobolo, as they bend so easily already. SS2 does allow the resins to move about in rosewoods, leading to potential staining where there is sapwood or color variation present, so we avoid the issue entirely. |
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| Author: | Dave m2 [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Super Soft II |
Slightly off topic but I almost exclusively use maple for back and sides so I need to keep temperatures down during bending to avoid scorching. I have had great difficulty doing the bending of a Venetian cutaway and wonder if supersoft would help? I took the side down to 1.8 mm which did worry me a bit and ended up with a bit of a wave across the width in the lower bout. Replies in this thread have given me the clearest way of using the stuff so thanks. Dave |
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