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Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Reviewed
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Author:  Woodie G [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Reviewed
When we have a few students and one or two additional luthiers in the shop, the resources for measuring and marking can get a little tight. A few years ago, the boss implemented a 'minimum tool' list for anyone working here that included an apron (the Lee Valley is recommended and comes in shorter length for those of normal height), good double square and at least one 6" rule graduated in fractions and decimal inches (the shop has a complete set of metric rules -used far less frequently, so not required).

After being reminded of this policy a few dozen times (I take my apron home to wash every week or two - believing that a filthy, glue-encrusted apron is not needed to show my dedication to the craft ;) ), I went looking for an inexpensive square to permanently populate the shop benches. One of the luthiers that drops by every week or two suggested I take a look at Products Engineering Company's (PEC) U. S. made blemished seconds on Ebay. I ended up buying four of these at just under $20 per square delivered.

The picture shows my boss's shop-worn Starrett next to the worst of the blemished PEC squares. The reason for the 'blem' designation is apparent - the 64th grads are a little under-filled with contrasting black paint, and as a result of the 2nd status, the PEC text is kissed with a grinder to prevent resale as a first-quality tool.

Given that my 4' and 6" double squares are used primarily for marking (both for square and as a marking gauge) versus any measuring (that's the job of the rule, right?) there's no real functional impact, and the squares are as accurate and nearly as smooth in operation as the 13 series tools from Starrett.

The only negative I can see is no 'ATHOL, MASS. U.S.A.' badging, so no excuse for speculation on how the town acquired the name (we are all just aging 9 year olds at recess after a few fingers of an after-work beverage, right?).

In any case, still time to order and receive before the holiday, should you need to stock up for the new year.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blem-Cosmetic-Second-PEC-USA-4R-4-double-machinist-square-acc-001-per-6-/151515185414?hash=item2347024106:g:g1kAAOSwAL9UjlaS

PEC also has many other blemished tools listed (6" double squares, rules), if you can tolerate some very minor flaws - all made in the USA and close to Starrett design and production standards. I have a few other items on order and will report once I can use them and compare to the shop's Starrett, B&S, etc. squares and rules.
Author:  Bri [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Gotta agree with the Woody, I have numerous PEC measuring tools and there is nothing that matches in quality at this cost.

B
Author:  George L [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Thanks for the tip, Woodie G. There is one on its way to my house! [:Y:]
Author:  bcombs510 [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
George L wrote:
Thanks for the tip, Woodie G. There is one on its way to my house! [:Y:]


Ditto


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  joe white [ Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Thanks! I ordered a 4" and a 6". [:Y:]
Author:  Ruby50 [ Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Here is another place that sells the same line:

http://www.harryepstein.com/index.php/c ... ngineering

They may offer some additional items of interest

and
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Thanks, Mr. Minch! For those of us that wish to avoid Ebay, and where Amazon's pricing appears to add more than a few dollars to the cost to cover 'free' shipping, your link appears to provide the lowest prices prior to shipping.

We have received some of the 6" squares ordered, and they appear to be a little different than the 6" Starretts in that the PEC offering retains the 4" stock, but adds a 6" blade...which in my view is more useful than the wider blade and larger stock used by Starrett, making the tool a bit less useful as an occupant of my shop apron. For those that want a less expensive duplicate of the larger Starrett 6" square, the PEC offering will be a disappointment; however, for those that want an extra inch or two blade length on their pocket square, the 6" PEC is ideal.

In terms of workmanship and accuracy, the 6" seems even nicer than the 4" squares we've received. As to the reason for designation as a 'blemished' product, the only thing we saw was a bit of a smudge on the satin chrome blade finish...and that cleaned up with naphtha. We ordered the 6" squares with the blue baked enamel finish, and noted that the blades were not marked with the PEC logo...just the grads and Made In USA.

The rules and a few other tools should be in late this week or next, but I'll be out of the shop for a few days between Christmas and New Years, so will update this post sometime after the 1st.
Author:  Glen H [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Thanks for the heads-up, I just ordered a couple of these.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Thanks for that. I was just looking at those last week, well not the squares but the blem second rulers, and I was wondering if it was a too good to be true thing or not.
Author:  Quine [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Woodie G wrote:

The only negative I can see is no 'ATHOL, MASS. U.S.A.' badging, so no excuse for speculation on how the town acquired the name (we are all just aging 9 year olds at recess after a few fingers of an after-work beverage, right?).
.


Here in Massachusetts, you see a lot of ATHOL drivers on the roads laughing6-hehe
Author:  Ruby50 [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
I just used one of my favorite small squares this afternoon. These are inexpensive and found everywhere, and if you are lucky you can even find a Starrett. It is great for making sure dovetails (in furniture) are square to the face, on guitars, works for depth neck mortice, height of braces, and all manner of checking and marking.
Author:  Woodie G [ Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Quine wrote:
Woodie G wrote:

The only negative I can see is no 'ATHOL, MASS. U.S.A.' badging, so no excuse for speculation on how the town acquired the name (we are all just aging 9 year olds at recess after a few fingers of an after-work beverage, right?).
.


Here in Massachusetts, you see a lot of ATHOL drivers on the roads laughing6-hehe


Like I said...aging 9 year-olds! laughing6-hehe

Mr. Minch...what is that tool? Some sort of depth gauge?
Author:  Ruby50 [ Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Woody

Call me Ed, please. Starrett offers this as their 237 depth gauge - in the picture. They have been made by all the big guys - Union, Craftsman, B+S, Lufkin, and I saw one by General. I have a friend who collects them and he must have 30 of them - all this same simple design. The one in my original picture is made by Chesterman/England their #199. It is a hair out of square when the blade is extended 6", but for the 1/2" to 1-1/2" that I use it for marking square, it is fine. And of course for a depth gauge it is perfect. I paid a couple of bucks for it at a garage sale, and have passed on several others because I have one. I use it a lot - it lives on the bench.

Ed
Author:  Aaron O [ Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Just realized that I ordered a straightedge from the same seller. My purchase went a little different - I clicked on the Amazon link above, and got it from Amazon. How coincidental, I ended up here:
https://www.amazon.com/s?marketplaceID= ... irect=true

No blemishes, but same stuff. . . and we get to support the OLF. . . just saying :)
Author:  jshelton [ Sat Dec 24, 2016 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
I ordered a 6" machinist square blem from these people and it arrived yesterday. I checked it against two high quality machinist squares I already own and found exactly the same error. It is not perfectly square! It's about as accurate as a "made in India" machinist square I bought a few years ago for $5. I won't be buying anything else from these people.
Author:  Woodie G [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
We've now had 4 of the 4" and two of the 6" (just a longer blade on the same stock) through the shop and all check out with the one 'master' square we have (and the adjustable Starretts) - the max error we have seen is 0.0015" on one of the 6" squares when measured against the master. Might be worth asking the seller to replace it with a compliant square or provide a refund.

From what I understand, adjustable squares meant for bench use have about 30 times the allowable angular error (.001" per inch of blade length) versus a fixed blade toolmaker's square (.0002" per 6 inch blade length), so I am not surprised to see a few thousandths error in both our 4" 13C Starretts or in one of the other builder's Lee Valley PEC-made squares when compared to the master square. In terms of functional accuracy, 0.001" per inch equates to 6/100ths of a degree angular error, which seems acceptable when laying out a bridge or peg head. The most common use for my square - as a marking gauge for bridge pin layout or laying out a center line - is more a function of the locking mechanism than angular accuracy in any case. For machine setup, we use the largest fixed stock squares when resetting the square stops, fences, etc. - using a fixed square versus an adjustable tool seems like it's a 'best practice' sort of thing for a small shop, but i have no idea whether this is the usual practice in industry.

Perhaps Mr. Hall can draw on his background as a machinist and engineer to suggest some good approaches to small shop tool setup and tool use for woodworking.
Author:  jshelton [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
Woodie G wrote:
We've now had 4 of the 4" and two of the 6" (just a longer blade on the same stock) through the shop and all check out with the one 'master' square we have (and the adjustable Starretts) - the max error we have seen is 0.0015" on one of the 6" squares when measured against the master. Might be worth asking the seller to replace it with a compliant square or provide a refund.

From what I understand, adjustable squares meant for bench use have about 30 times the allowable angular error (.001" per inch of blade length) versus a fixed blade toolmaker's square (.0002" per 6 inch blade length), so I am not surprised to see a few thousandths error in both our 4" 13C Starretts or in one of the other builder's Lee Valley PEC-made squares when compared to the master square. In terms of functional accuracy, 0.001" per inch equates to 6/100ths of a degree angular error, which seems acceptable when laying out a bridge or peg head. The most common use for my square - as a marking gauge for bridge pin layout or laying out a center line - is more a function of the locking mechanism than angular accuracy in any case. For machine setup, we use the largest fixed stock squares when resetting the square stops, fences, etc. - using a fixed square versus an adjustable tool seems like it's a 'best practice' sort of thing for a small shop, but i have no idea whether this is the usual practice in industry.

Perhaps Mr. Hall can draw on his background as a machinist and engineer to suggest some good approaches to small shop tool setup and tool use for woodworking.

Tool setup is the main thing I use the fixed square for otherwise I usually grab one of the Starrett adjustable ones. I didn't measure the error just checked both sides against the other fixed squares and found the same seam of light showing. I don't expect perfection from adjustable squares but the fixed ones (I call machinist squares) should be pretty much perfect. I'm a bit disappointed with this one considering it's made in USA.
Author:  Woodie G [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
We have Starrett toolmakers squares and a master square for machine setup and checking other tools, but it seems like there are never enough small adjustable squares when the shop is full - hence, my post on the small 4" and 6" adjustable PEC squares. These are squares that live in aprons and get bashed about on a routine basis...like our 4" Harbor Freight calipers, they are cheap enough to die an untimely death without undue mourning or onerous replacement cost.

I would whole-hardheartedly agree with you, Mr. Shelton, that the expectation of angular accuracy for a fixed-blade square (or what Starrett calls a 'solid square', versus their adjustable squares) should be much higher (30 times higher!), given the various standards that apply to these tools - definitely a 'return or replace' with an accurate tool situation. A product sold as cosmetically blemish should otherwise be fully compliant with all applicable accuracy standards!
Author:  Ruby50 [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
The adjustable squares are in fact "adjustable". Take out the blade from the body, find a file that fits the groove where the blade went, and pass a file lightly over the side of the base that needs to come down to bring it into square.

I got 2 of the PEC 4" on Friday and they are both a good match to my machinist's square - good enough for small measurements in wood work for sure. I find the edges a little sharp, so will spend a minute with a small file on them.

Ed
Author:  doncaparker [ Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
I decided to take a chance on one of the blem PEC 4" double squares. Not much risk, given the price. It is a dandy little square, very accurate according to my Starrett combination square and one of my fixed machinists squares. The only blemishes are the markings on the blade, which should probably be a bit darker, and the spot where some text was ground off the blade. Thanks for the recommendation!
Author:  James Orr [ Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Reviewed
I've picked up the 6" and 12" squares. Accuracy aside, they're way easier to read than my Starrett (pictured in the middle). The 12" has a few more battle scars, but it was still a bargain. Thanks for telling us about these, Woodie.

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Author:  ernie [ Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
thanks woodie, I ordered the 4in double Metric sq off e-vil bay .Since we live 110 mi from the seller had to pay tax , no worries. I own a 6in sae starrett double . So was surprised to see the metric. , Since I am used to metric , find it much easier to use thanks again!!
Author:  Woodie G [ Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Good, Inexpensive, US-Made Double Squares - PEC 4" Revie
[:Y:]
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