Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Apr 23, 2024 10:10 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: PLEK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:34 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:14 pm
Posts: 439
First name: Mike
Last Name: Imbler
City: Wichita
State: KS
Zip/Postal Code: 67204
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Chris, I worked at Beech from 78 to 96, I don't remember you by name, but I'll bet our paths crossed if you were doing NC. I was an ME and coordinated a lot with the programmers to make sure the designs made sense producibility wise. I designed landing gears so they were definitely machining intensive. And everyone I dealt with was easy to get along with so that doesn't make you stand out in my memory :) :)

Mike

Chris Pile wrote:
Quote:
A plek is a machine that can be programmed to be run by an unskilled person.


The operative phrase there is CAN BE, he didn't say WILL or MUST BE.

As an old machinist who learned G-code at the knee of Jesus, I can tell you all this new "conversational" programming used in newer machines enables the complete idiot to program. They don't even have to read a print properly. And that's what a lot of companies want for employees, because they can pay them MUCH less than people with real skills, knowledge, abilities, and experience.

It does help a lot, when the programmer can actually read and understand a print, think in 3 dimensions, and plan a complex job from start to finish - including designing the fixtures for the job. When you can run any machine in the shop competently, and program rings around most CATIA jockeys - you get stuff done under budget and please every inspector along the way. Which is why (without bragging too much), at my last job at Beechcraft - I zoomed to the top of the pay scale in a less than 4 years, at a time when many guys with 20 years employment were still in the middle range of the pay scale.

Plus, I was handsome and easy to get along with. :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PLEK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:46 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5758
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Quote:
Chris, I worked at Beech from 78 to 96, I don't remember you by name, but I'll bet our paths crossed if you were doing NC. I was an ME and coordinated a lot with the programmers to make sure the designs made sense producibility wise. I designed landing gears so they were definitely machining intensive. And everyone I dealt with was easy to get along with so that doesn't make you stand out in my memory :) :)


I worked 2nd shift by choice, Mike - less BS to deal with. I could just work, and be left alone. Minimized my aggravation. I worked in Tooling and Blue Streak under Gary Sheppard / Gary Faust for the most part, until they moved elsewhere in the company. I was hired in October of '95, and was laid off in February of '04. The guys up in Dept. 48 feared to hear my footsteps.... I didn't tolerate bad programmers. You remember that guy called "Captain Chaos"? Everything he wrote crashed.

You probably ran into my brother, Kevin. He just had his 41st anniversary at the plant....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PLEK
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:30 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:58 pm
Posts: 275
First name: Leo
Last Name: Pedersen
City: Bowen Island
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V0N 1G2
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
That is a great article Brian - very inspiring!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PLEK
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:29 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13079
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
dberkowitz wrote:
Hesh wrote:
A couple of points to resist or make.

How the PLEK is deployed is of course of value when evaluating it's work. It's been my impression that the lousy fret work that we see too from G*bson is likely because the instruments spend minimal time on the machine. I say this because I see the tool paths.... the lines milled in the frets. Similar to scratches they represent not enough passes to improve the overall finish of the frets. Do this with the business part of the procedure, milling the tops to precision levelness INCLUDING accounting for final fit and finish and it's likely that some manufacturers are simply speeding things through and that the machines are capable of much better.

By the way errors in fret work are easily detected and measured once we define errors over what distance or span. It is very possible to design a process to measure and compare the results of a skilled Luthier vs. a PLEK machine. This is what we have been wanting to do too for around 6 years now with no takers.... We did score one interested party who agrees with our assertion that we can do better than a PLEK (he can too) but he would not agree to let us publish our results.

Steve we do say that a PLEK is only as skilled as the operator but there are other limitations. The code is not open source and after talking with PLEK experts that have more than one of them they have told us that the code does not offer functionality for some of those "Nuance" things that Chris very rightly brought up. Remember Steve when we are applying finger top pressure, the touch if you will, to correct a specific anomaly of a specific instrument while either leveling the board or final leveling fret tops? That's nuance and that's often important with fretwork.

If you have an ax that has a neck that responds different under string tension than say at least for the fret work we human bags of mostly water... can observe this, correct for it with the "touch" and that this is not easily done with a PLEK.

Don great comments and it may be a reach to say that a machine will "never" be capable of exceeding hand work. But it's not a reach these days to say that. From polishing multi-million dollar lenses for Hubble to some of the smallest tolerance machining ever done the skilled craftsman is still relied on to do the details. I can have a robot operate on me but I would much rather sue and punch a human being when they botch the job.....:)

As someone who learned to program back in the day in Fortran 77, COBOL, Basic, Pascal, MAD (proprietary, stands for Michigan Algorithm Decoder) and several other computer languages on the processor side the only thing a PLEK has over we humans is it won't get tired doing multiple iterations of the same math and it's way faster. We humans are still capable of the same precision.

We humans can also do the entire job including discuss options with the client, address any issues that may result after the work is done, we are not dependent on anyone else to turn us on, strap the stinkin ax on our bench, or motivate us to do well, pay the electric bill, pay PLEK, get updates, change tools, maintain a suitable industrial environment, etc. Seems a PLEK has a long way to go before it can compete with just how exactly irritating a human being I can specifically be....:)

Don't get me wrong there are good places for PLEKs but I just don't think that it's in a dedicated Lutherie repair shop or small builder shop yet unless you really push product through with multiple employees and a huge amount of business AND people don't come to you because of your skill and "touch..."



A couple of thoughts. I had a client with extremely unreasonable demands of string behavior on a 30" baritone. He was in Nashville, so I sent him to Joe Glaser who Plek'd the guitar. Sometime thereafter, I called Joe to ask how bad my fretwork was. He said I was over the 95th percentile of all the work he evaluates. A couple of minor flat spots, but that's it. There wasn't much he was able to do. I found that encouraging.

On the other side of things, I know that Jeff Traugott has all his guitars Plek'd. I would say Jeff has some of the most discerning and demanding expectations of any builder out there. That Jeff finds value in it says a lot. Is any device or person going to be be able to account for everything? No. But they are going to get there more accurately. I'd bet on average the Plek is far more accurate than the average fret job or dressing.


Good Going David. Joe is the US rep for PLEK I believe and has three of them. As such he's an expert and up to speed on bleeding edge PLEK methodology and likely has contributed heavily to not only proliferating the use of the PLEK but in helping to write the book as to how to use it best.

F*ctories and individual Luthiers have different objectives....... or should IMO and IME... Where production is often critical to quality in six sigma speak to a f*ctory taking one's time and getting it right is often critical to quality for the individual Luthier.

An issue that I had as a builder only was that my ability to practice my fretting was directly proportionate to my ability to produce new guitars. As such I only got to do fretting once a month or less.....

If Joe put you in the top 95% I would take that as a huge compliment and with a long scale too, harder to do well as well. [:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:] Also know that Joe's PLEK jobs are likely as good as the machine is capable of doing.

I would agree that a well run PLEK in the hands of a skilled operator like Joe is significantly better than most of the individual Luthier fret work that we see too with few exceptions. OTOH that is not how the PLEK is used everywhere.

There are people fresh out of a Lutherie school well financed who buy PLEKs right off the bat before even understanding how to do superb fret work manually..... Then they hang out a shingle and jump through hoops trying to figure out how to keep it humming at least several hours a day, every day, on and one, over and over to pay for it....

Dave knows Joe well as well.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: dberkowitz (Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:28 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: PLEK
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:37 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13079
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
murrmac wrote:
bluescreek wrote:
A plek is a machine that can be programmed to be run by an unskilled person.


I think that guys like Joe Glaser and Phil Jacoby would disagree, and disagree quite vehemently with that statement.

To get the most out of the PLEK, the operator needs to be trained to a very high level of competence. It is not a "strap it in and push a button" operation, although that seems to be how Martin and Gibson treat it. There is a world of difference between a guitar that comes out of Joe Glaser's shop after being PLEKked , and the average new Martin guitar.

The very best PLEKked fret jobs, are the equal of the very best hand leveled and crowned fret jobs.

The PLEK doesn't do the fret ends, of course ... that is still where the human hand reigns supreme.


A lot of truth and the training is also mandatory when you license a PLEK and NOT cheap.

I will stick my chest out though and argue, respectfully with my friend Murray that we think that Dave Collins can do superior work to a PLEK and have tried numerous times to find a willing PLEK and operator. So far no takers......

When I was learning to do fret work Dave had me do a PRS that was to be measured against a PLEK too. The idea was comparing methodologies not necessarily one tool or machine against another. Still no takers.....

Don't get us wrong we think that there is a great place for a PLEK we just take issue with the idea that a PLEK as in it's current and past iterations can produce superior results over a highly skilled Luthier. PLEKs don't consume single malt either, they have no soul....;) Nor do they put the guitar in playing position and play Purple Haze when the work is done either..... dang things.... :)

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): jack (Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:31 am) • Clinchriver (Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:59 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 82 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com