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It sucks that the jig was made wrong and you wasted good wood to find out...

The one thing I can add is from a repair perspective and that is, don't forget to make sure you have a gap at the back of the joint. There needs to be a small gap so you can drill down into it to inject steam if the neck ever has to come off. If there isn't a gap you can't feel when you drop into it with a drill bit and it will be more difficult to get steam into the joint.

You may already know about leaving the gap but the picture you posted appears to show a tight fit there.

Bob

I do have a slight gap there, maybe 1/32". It should probably be a bit bigger, but I'm a little gun shy about changing anything. I'll shape the heel and taper the length of the neck this weekend, hopefully there won't be any surprises there.

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Blog on Making Stuff: http://www.McGlynnOnMaking.com

Good job Joe. It is hard getting all the angles and everything to fit.

Two comments and I hope I don't offend anyone who designed or has a stake in this kind of jig. The good. It is useful to hold the neck and or the body while the template guides the router. Not necessarily always bad, but potentially leading to a big pitfall, I am offering the following criticism. The angle that the jig creates for the neck is not necessarily the angle that is best for the given guitar based on the instructions given for these jigs. The angle of the neck is determined ideally by the design of the guitar. Maybe this IS what is expected from the designer of the jig but I think there is a lot of after the design use of it. Maybe this is miss use but I have seen a lot of problems resulting from these jigs. It should not be used to set the angle of a guitar neck without regard to proper design of the guitar itself. It is a mistake to build a guitar and expect this jig to get the neck angle set correctly and the fingerboard to sit flat on the guitar top. It cannot compensate for a side to top angle that is not correct to begin with. In this case either the tongue of the fingerboard will be bent up or down from the joint towards the bridge or a gap will be under the fingerboard at the joint, above the body. Setting the jig to project to a given point WILL set the neck angle to result in a given height, given a fingerboard thickness, fret height that is known in advance, but won't result in a straight fingerboard from nut to the last fret. If the body is designed correctly for this type of construction where the fingerboard sits flat on the body, then it should be a straight line. . With maybe a little fall away to compensate for tension changes when strings are at tension. Many use radius dishes to create an (curved) angle under the fingerboard of the guitar rim, and there has been a lot of excellent advice here as to how some do it. But this geometry is critically important for the guitar to play correctly with reasonable string action.
It does hold the body nicely it seems, as well as the neck. But they are very bulky and big. But there are other ways to hold these parts that are useful for many other operations during the building process. So for me it is really not practical to have this kind of a jig taking up valuable space. I also think the instructions are vague in what they can and cannot do. Except the video posted here by Eric Schaefer http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10146&t=48931which did go into this in detail and is an excellent presentation of his method.

Again I hope I don't offend anyone, but these are being marketed to us and I think a fair criticism is in order.

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Ken

I don't think you said anything offensive. This is a tricky part of the build, there are a lot of variables involved, including how the guitar body was put together. Without understanding all of these factors I doubt any jig can guarantee success.

I'm still a little puzzled about why the neck is prone to rocking (up and down) after cutting the joint. I am assuming that there is something funky with the geometry of the side in the area of the joint. I have another body and neck that I'm ready to cut the neck joint on, and I've sanded it dead flat top to bottom and for 3" wide so I have a completely flat landing pad for the joint. It will be interesting to see how the joint comes together on that one.

The angle between the top surface of the neck and the curved surface of the soundboard is still a mystery to me. I've read a number of things on the web about this, but until I go through it (and probably make a few mistakes) I don't think I'll have a solid handle on it. I set the neck angle by measuring for the projection height at the bridge, that part makes sense to me. Getting the fretboard flat and straight is going to be a crapshoot.

My plan is to see how it all fits once I get the neck dialed in to the final positioning and then do whatever I have to in order for the fretboard to fit. Maybe undercut the bottom of the fretboard, maybe make a wedge to fit under it, maybe pack it with bondo (ok, kidding).

Looking at the gore/gillet book I'm drawn to the bolt on/bolt off neck approach. Seems like it neatly avoids the flat fretboard problem, and simplifies fitting the joint, and makes it so I can finish everything separately and re-assemble it and be sure it will all fit right. I may try that on the next guitar, depending on what I learn from these.

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Blog on Making Stuff: http://www.McGlynnOnMaking.com

Hey Joe,
I use a jig like the one for sale from LMI, but made mine from a picture of theirs. It works fine, but you have to get each template "dialed in" so to speak on each jig respectively. I use the Robbie O'Brien "BR-549" jig for the female part of the dovetail (sometimes called the "Tail") and synchronize each tail with each "pin". I would like to suggest that you take a 2 x 4 and make up several parts for "dummie" neck blocks and necks and start making pins and tails from "throw-away" lumber and not expensive wood until you get everything the way you want it. Don't get in a hurry as it will take a few to get where you want to be. Use this time to make adjustments to the neck angle jig if need be. I know I had to "adjust" a lot, as I said mine was made just looking at a pic.

Just thought I'd throw in a couple of pics of the "dummies"

What !!!!!??????? Are you kidding me, Not picking on you personally but just using your quote, I am objecting to that usage. That is plain ridiculous. Who calls the empty space a tail? That is like calling your car the tire, or the steering wheel the brake or more like calling a empty parking space your car. How can one communicate effectively when one uses the wrong words. Dovetail joints have two male parts, pins and tails. The spaces where they fit are called sockets when doing blind dovetails other wise it is call the waste or to get Murry as worked up as me the waist.
I saw the same type of thing on the chisel hardening thread where people were using 3 very different terms with very specific meanings and interchanging them.
Hardening
Annealing
Tempering
We should adopt the correct technical language of the trades so we can be understood, and be effective. They used to teach this stuff. A bolt is a bolt, a nut a nut and a washer a washer.

L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

I think the standard woodworker terminology is "pins" and "tails" for the male and female parts respectively. Not defending the terminology, just reporting

I just want the outie part to fit the innie part with any gappie in between.

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Blog on Making Stuff: http://www.McGlynnOnMaking.com

....well, I thought Eric Schaefer's video was excellent. It was done very professionally, to the point, and had good close-up video and clear audio. Hat's off to Eric.

You are reporting it, however not understanding what it refers to as the terminology does not refer to the "male and female parts respectively." Pins and tail fit into "sockets" THE FEMALE PART. Pins and Tails are both MALE parts. Look at a typical dovetail joint. The designation is to identify the two interlocking types of male parts. The female part is empty space.
You can call your male part a pin or a tail. I would tend to call it a tail as it is shaped more like what is typically a tail part of a dovetail joint.
The empty socket is not a tail, in some cases the pin and the tail could be identical. Call your Male part a tail and call your female part a socket or a tapered angled mortise but IT IS NOT A TAIL
If any of you think me being pedantic lets just start calling the headstock the tuner, and the butt wedge the back graft and so on. This isn't the vernacular of the people, this is technical language to describe craft

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Woodie, I just read your post. Your "guys" if they are indeed referring to sockets as pins don't have much of a cabinet making background. If they did there is no way they would make such an egregious error.
To attribute this to their background is mistaken, it is more likely a lack of background. I am not saying they don't do good work just that this is ignorance. Most framers wouldn't know anything about a dovetail unless they are timber framers. The terminology is well know, well established and has been for hundreds of years. Nothing to do with background but rather lack of. This whole thing is unbelievable to me. Pins are pins, tails are tails, both are male parts. On a drawer or a carcass, sockets are the spaces inbetween. In the case of a guitar it could be called the angled tapered mortise if you will.
BTW Dovetails (Pins and tails) are a type of tenon and the socket is a type of mortise. Any complication is created as the terminology is solid and describes things perfectly and has been established for hundreds of years.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Here is an example of a blind dovetail joint on a drawer. You are looking at both the pins and the tails, you can not see the mortises/sockets. They are being filled by the pins and tails. They were cut to except the pins and tails. In the walnut are cut the pins and in the PO cedar the tails.
Capeesh
L

BTW I cut these over 30 years ago, my first hand cut dovetail drawer. I should have dusted the corner of the cabinet before taking the photo!

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

And that's all I have to say about that

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

That is a whole lot easier than what I did. Succinct.
Thanks Joe.
L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

OK your point is well taken. I have seen your website and know you are an accomplished woodworker. I also think you can develop a further understanding of the critical issues here.

If the neck is rocking front to back when the dovetail is inserted into the socket, then there is a curved surface causing it. There are two possibilities. First is the end grain of the neck which is unlikely unless your template is curve, warped etc. The second is the surface that it mates with, the guitar body at the neck-body joint. It can remain curved if you also curve the end grain part of the neck that mates with it. But ideally it should be flat so it is easier to slide down the neck into the joint and have no gaps to fix. But in order to fix this you need to curve the neck end grain to match that front to back curve. Flossing the joint might actually cause this problem to emerge if you accidentally rock it as you pull the neck against the sandpaper. I guess there IS a third possibility causing the rocking. If the end of the neck is touching the neck block. Either make the mortise deeper or the dovetail shorter so there is the gap. It does not need to touch here.

Put the neck in the joint and push it down as far as it can go. It probably won't go all the way down which is ok. Hold the neck in the position that it needs to be and imagine you are going to scribe a cabinet to a wall.

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Ken

I routed the neck joint on my second guitar using the LMI jig tonight. Before doing it I made sure I had a dead flat area side to side and front to back larger than the end of the neck blank. Same deal, the neck rocks...so it's not the shape of the end of the guitar.

I think the geometry of the dovetails is just wrong. It just doesn't fit very well at all. After an hour of test fitting and paring it's getting better, but I think I got a lemon.

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In my admittedly limited experience, no dovetail has slipped together perfectly right out of my jig (non-LMI) and they tend to rock a bit until I have the joint pretty close to the final fit. However, it seems you are dealing with a lot more movement than I would expect. That's a shame and must be incredibly frustrating. I hope you get things straightened out soon.


As we are being particular about language, I agree with this massage.

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George :-)

My mistake...I have only cut a few dozen sets for drawers, but believe that at least one tail socket must be present to claim the presence of a pin (or half pin), so simply add 'tail' prior to 'socket' in my sentence and the meaning more closely aligns with my intent and your suggested usage.

Given that there are no dovetail 'pins' or 'half-pins' readily apparent on a guitar, while the tail socket seems to be present and accounted for, it seems as though 'tail' & 'socket' or 'tail' & 'tail socket' might be a better description than mortise or tenon, or pins (there has to be at least two, yes? - they seem difficult to find on the bodies scattered about the shop) and tail.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Guitars aren't drawers so the terminology does nothave to coincide. In this instance I'm with Woodie, my vote is for tail and tail socket - just makes more sense to me.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

.............so, I'm still unsure which "_______" jig I will end up getting.

Terminology aside, I've been using a Woolson neck jig and it is ok. Takes a bit of practice to get your process down and it will do a decent job. The basic design is fine but the one I have could be done with tighter tolerances. I've been thinking about either reworking it with higher-grade materials/ better tolerances or just buying the luthier tools jig. Hmmmmmmm, it's an awful lot of money.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Your more than welcome to try it before you buy it.

Says who? Cars aren't bicycles so a bolt on a car can be a washer on a bicycle. They don't have to coincide because they aren't the same. I don't think that is a good argument.


I

First of all this does not conflict with any thing I have said. Tail and socket are proper terminology for the woodworking joint that is in wood that happens to be on a guitar.
Second there is no vote on this, it has already been established. Yes I agree with Woodie and Woodie has agreed with me or what I was presenting.

I don't get the push back on this.

L.

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Thank you sir - I would like to come up and watch you do one of yours or one of mine if I have something ready. I would like to see it in action. Of course, after this shop remodel project it will be a little while before mama lets me loose with the checkbook again

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

So, gentlemen...now that we have settled the really important issue here, shall we move on to the 'kerfed lining' versus 'kerfing' discussion, or would that be - and let me offer a prophylactic apology here - too much of a kerfuffle?

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)