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 Post subject: Your favorite chisels
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Hey all,

In the course if my builds - I end up doing a lot of chisel work.... While I have a couple "good" chisels - I find myself wishing they were harder....

I don't chop dovetails or mortises... I don't hammer my chisels... Mostly - it's brace shaving, neck tenons; paring binding, purflings, massaging rosette grooves, and the like....

My chisels....
Blue spruce 3/4" and 3/8" paring - very nice but the sides are really sharp. You have to sharpen these at a fairly steep angle because of the steel.

LMI 18mm - this one I wish was a lot harder (it ends up with one heck of a wire edge when sharpening) and I seriously wish that they had not polished it.... Polishing rounded off every single flat and level surface. And that means it takes forever to get going initially. It came with about a 13 degree bevel on it - but it rolled the edge too easily even on spruce... I am now up to 25 degrees and it at least seems stable.

The LMI chisel was disappointing because of the number of folks online saying how they were really good and hard.... Perhaps they changed their supplier or material specification?

Irwin blue handle 1/8".. Handy but dulls way too fast

Twin Cherries 1/16" - great for teeny work but not much else.

So.... What's out there in a paring chisel size that's basically un-tempered glass hard (or nearly so) steel that's going to have a good long edge life when paring rosewood, Jatoba, bubinga, and similar hard exotics?



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:47 pm 
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I have the set of 8 powdered metal (PMV11) chisels from Veritas and love them. The set is $500 so a bit of sticker shock. They are bench chisels so if you need a pure paring chisel, these may not be what you want or need, but the steel is just excellent. It sharpens as easy or better than A2 and holds a sharp edge like crazy. They have a tough handle and feel great in the hand.

I also have a set of the $50 for 6 czech-made Narex bench chisels. They are easy to sharpen, have tough handles and the metal is RC58. It took a while to flatten the backs but they are probably the nicest set you will find under $150.

The lie-neilsen bench chisels are supposed to be nice but I don't have any experience with them. I have 2 of their fishtail chisels and they are nice.

I also have a set of the new Stanley 750 chisels but they are still in the box. I never sharpened them but they are incredibly comfortable in the hand.

I have 100+ year old English chisels and Swedish Berg chisels that get wicked sharp but don't have the edge retention of the better modern steels. I think these are the older style W1 steel. They cut great but dull quicker (and sharpen so easily).

Hopefully some of this helped.

Good luck-

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:12 pm 
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I have the Lie-Nielson chisels, they are very nice general purpose chisels. For paring braces I want something longer with a lower bevel -- I'm probably going to buy a set of the Narex paring chisels and see how low a bevel angle I can get away with.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:22 pm 
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[quote="John Lewis"]I have the set of 8 powdered metal (PMV11) chisels from Veritas and love them. The set is $500 so a bit of sticker shock. They are bench chisels so if you need a pure paring chisel, these may not be what you want or need, but the steel is just excellent. It sharpens as easy or better than A2 and holds a sharp edge like crazy. They have a tough handle and feel great in the hand.

As far as edge retention the PVMII are in a class of their own, Blue Spruce are close.


Last edited by Clinchriver on Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:15 pm 
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my faves are swiss/pfeil carving chisels .I/ve had some for 45 yrs. They are great for paring/fine work . japanese chisels are also handy for carving braces.. I have a set of stubai from austria same class as 2 cherries also good value for the $$. Too bad you can/t try them before buying.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:56 pm 
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The PMV-11 steel is without question - the best and most useful blade material for the tasks we use. It is noticeably superior to the A2 steel used by Blue Spruce or Lie Nielsen. However, the Veritas chisels are not of the same workmanship as the Blue Spruce - the Blue Spruce handles are IMO, the best out there. The only other equivalent and perhaps a bit better, is good Japanese steel. Also, keeping the angel at 28 to 30 degrees does help tremendously as far as edge retention. 25 degrees is nice and super sharp but dulls quickly with hard exotics.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:54 pm 
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For brace carving i like to use a wilco flier paring chisel, made of good old O1. It gives a nice feedback and the craftsmanship is top notch. I also use a refurbished vintage sorby paring chisel.
For chopping I like the Japanese kunikei chisels the best. A good old vintage chisel like the Swedish or English ones are also nice and, as said, easy to sharpen.

For cheap narex is hard to beat. Ashley isles are also nice all rounders, and not too xpensive. I also like the two cherries, even if they are on the bulky side - what is it you don't like about them?

I like pmv11 steel but couldn't convince myself to shell out for the chisels. Too expensive and they looked rather bulky in the pics.

Ah... tools!

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:21 pm 
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I have a handful of the Sorby bench chisels. They are about 20 years old and I like them a lot. The ones I've seen at Woodcraft more recently look about the same to me so maybe they are.

For your LMI chisel, maybe there is something you can do to improve it. It sounds like they may have polished the heck out of it. Power polishing can de-temper the steel at the edge. It doesn't take much to do some damage. Consider how thin the steel is at the very edge and you can imagine how easily it can be overheated.

Before giving up on it, what I would do is get a coarse sharpening stone and remove at least half of the bevel by holding the chisel straight up against the stone and moving it back and forth. That is, stand the chisel up on end on the stone and keep it at 90 degrees. Then start over with a new bevel, formed on the coarse stone. It's labor intensive but gets you back to tempered steel without overheating the edge (again).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:30 pm 
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bionta wrote:


Before giving up on it, what I would do is get a coarse sharpening stone and remove at least half of the bevel by holding the chisel straight up against the stone and moving it back and forth. That is, stand the chisel up on end on the stone and keep it at 90 degrees. Then start over with a new bevel, formed on the coarse stone. It's labor intensive but gets you back to tempered steel without overheating the edge (again).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:20 pm 
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I likely have more chisels than I need. Whoa, did I just say that? They must be like clamps, can never have enough. Seriously, like 100 or more chisels. Marples, Ashley Isles, Henry Taylor, Two Cherries, Pfeil,Millers Falls, Stubai, Lee Valley, Narex and some beater sets from Irwin, Craftsman(Sears)and Mastercraft(Canadian Tire for our southern neighbours).
The Narex is tremendous value. Their leather chisel rolls are a bargain as well.
I always eye up those Blue Spruce, but my TAS is in remission for awhile.
There has always been the dicotomy of harder steel, longer lasting edge but tougher to sharpen, vs milder steel, easier to sharpen but not as long lasting. I prefer to sharpen more often as it only takes a minute or so as long as there are no nicks. Sometimes just a few seconds on the leather belt.
Not sure if I have a favorite, as long as they are sharp. I suppose the Marples and the pfeil see the most use but the one item I use most, though not a chisel, is the LV carvers knife with the disposable scalpel blades. Invaluable for fine tuning bindings, rosettes or any delicate work.
B

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:30 pm 
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truckjohn wrote:
While I have a couple "good" chisels - I find myself wishing they were harder....

I’ve had a set of Marples for over 20 years, but was never particularly impressed with their edge holding when used in a guitar building context. My blue handled Irwins were added maybe 10 years or so ago and they were of similar capability, i.e. not really cutting it.

Attachment:
Irwin-Marples.jpg


You can see from the pic of the Irwins that I had had a go at hardening the brace carving chisel, with no real beneficial effect. I took to using a variety of old chisels bought at junk sales which performer better, but still not as well as I wanted. I even made a chisel from an old file, which turned out to be the best chisel I owned, holding an edge way sharper and longer than anything else I had.

Attachment:
File Chisel.jpg


I was just about getting to the stage of junking the Stanleys and Irwins when a correspondence with an old mate happened to mention a method of hardening some of the alloyed tool steels that somehow I had in mind couldn’t be heat hardened. I’d previously tried and failed with the Irwin brace carver and a couple of old Stanley plane blades, which reinforced that thinking. I thought “nothing to lose here”, so gave it a go.

The process is to heat the last 50mm of the tool to ~750°C, hold at temperature for ~ 1 minute then plunge it into olive oil. That’s it! To get to 750°C I needed two butane torches flat out and matched the hot steel colour to the chart attached (cherry).

Attachment:
Colour Chart.jpg


I was expecting some “fireworks” when the blade hit the oil, so tooled up with a stack of safety gear, but was disappointed. Just a bit of mild bubbling. If you try this, I’d suggest that you use all the safety gear, at least the first time around. When the chisel has cooled, clean off the scale (at least) and buff out the discolouration if it bothers you. A previously sharpened chisel will be rather brittle on the cutting edge due to it being so thin (and so cooling too fast) and it won't take an edge. Just grind it back a bit, but keep it cool, then sharpen it up.

Well, I was impressed! I used the brace carver to flush trim a figured gidgee heel cap (really hard wood), reckoning if it could do that well, it would be fine.

Attachment:
Starting heel trim.jpg


Not only did it flush trim it fine, afterwards it would still shave hairs off my arm without a strop or re-hone. Not even my “file” chisel will do that. So I’d call that a pass. Previously, that chisel would have curled up its toes after one stroke.

Attachment:
Heel cap trimmed.jpg


Here's a detail of the brace carver after doing the heel cap.

Attachment:
Irwin brace carver.jpg


I did the rest of the chisels with similar results, but left out the 38mm chisel because I only just had enough heat to get the 32mm one to temperature.

Attachment:
Chisel Set.jpg


On the wider chisels, if you get the back of the blade into the oil first, you can get the back to dish slightly like some of the Japanese blades, which eases honing.

Attachment:
Dished back.jpg


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These users thanked the author Trevor Gore for the post (total 7): Kbore (Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:27 am) • JimWomack (Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:22 am) • Jonny (Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:17 pm) • Pmaj7 (Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:23 am) • david farmer (Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:29 am) • James Orr (Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:14 pm) • Alex Kleon (Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:40 pm)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:18 pm 
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Trevor, that sounds fascinating. We have a forge in the makerspace I belong to, and I might just try it on something!

My lifetime chisels are my Blue Spruce bench chisels. It took a while to get here, including going through some of their dovetail chisels. The dovetail handles were just too small for my hands, and the edge of the blades sliced my support fingers when I used them for pairing. The bench chisels are just right for me in every way. I hone at 30°.

I'd love to try the PMV-11 or some of the nice Tsai Japanese chisels Simon has mentioned in the past, but it won't be until either a chance encounter or a generous gift. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:07 am 
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We have a large selection of various brands and vintages of good chisels in the shop, with only a portion of them displayed on the tool boards behind the main woodworking bench. This abundance is more to allow students to experiment than any indication of a minimum tool kit for either building or repair. In the years I've been here, there are a few stand-outs that have become go-to's for certain tasks, and a few I avoid.

- For bracing and other carving chores, Pfeil #1 12mm and 18mm double bevel carving chisels - exquisite control with a long, slightly convex bevel, and good steel that strops well.

- For paring and light bench work in anything up to and including ebony, the mid-1970's 12mm and 20mm Ulmia Two Cherries branded firmers are everyone's go-to's here in the shop. Ground at 25 degrees and honed at 30 degrees, they hold up in even the hardest stock. For what it's worth, one of the guys came in with a new set of Two Cherries chisels, and they compare poorly with the originals from the 1977-80 time frame - the handles are far less comfortable, the blades are thicker and clunkier, and the steel is nowhere near as easy to sharpen or as good at holding an edge.

- For any work needing more than light mallet work, the 'first 100' set of the Lie Nielsen socket chisels in 1/8" to 1" are comfortable and durable in use - the hop hornbeam handles have aged well, and in comparison with the shop's vintage Stanley 720 and 750 chisels, hold an edge for a longer period of time in abrasive woods.

- For light paring - tasks like cleaning off bound head stocks and flushing up fretboard repairs, the round-back Ashley Iles 'dovetail' chisels are nice, thin-bladed tools that - once ground back a 1/16" or so to good steel, are very good for controlled cuts.

- The set of short-bladed 1980's Henry Taylor cranked neck chisels don't get used all that often, because the whippy-bladed vintage Sorby patternmaker's chisels can usually work flush on any surface, but they come in handy when there's no other tool to fit.

My least favorite tool is a so-called bracing chisel that cuts only one sweep, and is usually discarded by students here as soon as the advantages of a double-bevel carving chisel are known. Runner-ups are anything with a plastic handle...especially a new, slick handle that has not been toothed by wear or a bit of work with some sandpaper.

In the tradition of acquiring most things gently used (versus new, and I DO draw the line at underthings and shoes), when a boxed set of seven 1978-vintage Two Cherries came up on Ebay yesterday, they were snapped up immediately at the higher 'Buy It Now' price of $175 - sorry, boys. No - I'll probably never need some of those sizes (we get by with 1/4", 1/2", and 3/4" or metric equivalents for nearly every job), but I have the makings of a start on that cool wall'o'chisels.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:47 am 
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Thanks Trevor.

It seems like around here - there are basically no good used chisels for actual woodworking... Just the stubby cheap plastic handle ones that are primarily used for opening paint cans...

And the chisels at the local BORG home stores are the same as those.. Little 5" long stubby things that are useless except for paint can duty. It's crazy - but to get an actual chisel - I have to order anything from the cheapies to the good ones.

I think I may head over to the local Harbor Freight China Import store and see if they have anything resembling a longish bladed wood chisel and give it a go...

I am surprised that nobody here has a recommendation for Japanese chisels....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Woodie G wrote:

- For light paring - tasks like cleaning off bound head stocks and flushing up fretboard repairs, the round-back Ashley Iles 'dovetail' chisels are nice, thin-bladed tools that - once ground back a 1/16" or so to good steel, are very good for controlled cuts..


I finally gave up on mine, three would take a great edge but it would curl immediately from 20 to 30 degrees and the other two the edge will chip, guess they have a heat treat issue.



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:40 pm 
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"It seems like around here - there are basically no good used chisels for actual woodworking."

Hi John,
You got me in trouble with my wife.... I was going to suggest you check eBay for good used chisels, and thought I might take a quick look to see what was on offer. I found an old TH Witherby patternmakers chisel in a size I think will be useful and at a reasonable price, so of course I had to buy it....( the wife didn't think so)
There were other Witherby and PS&W chisels and many others not quite at flea market prices but some reasonably priced.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:29 am 
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For over a decade now I would hate it when someone comes along and posts that their solution, which can't be had by anyone else for one reason or another, was the best.....:) Not saying that my solution is the best, I don't use that word.... best.... but I am saying that I'm going to do what I hate and post that what I have, and you can't have, is great.

OLFer Link VanCleave apprenticed with Dave and I two summer in a row. It was a great time and Link is a very talented woodworker and Luthier!

Link made both Dave and I chisels with handmade handles (mine have ebony caps...) that fit my hands perfectly. We have lots of chisels in our shop including Blue Spruce which are nice too for fine work but Link's are the nicest ones that I have ever used and Dave favors his over all others too.

Thanks again Link!!!!!!

Back to our regularly scheduled program.....

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:53 am 
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Clinchriver wrote:
Woodie G wrote:

- For light paring - tasks like cleaning off bound head stocks and flushing up fretboard repairs, the round-back Ashley Iles 'dovetail' chisels are nice, thin-bladed tools that - once ground back a 1/16" or so to good steel, are very good for controlled cuts..


I finally gave up on mine, three would take a great edge but it would curl immediately from 20 to 30 degrees and the other two the edge will chip, guess they have a heat treat issue.

Maybe I was lucky - on first sharpening, obvious burrs/flaking edge appeared, but after some persistance/re-sharpening (like WoodieG) these have proved a good tool.
I like Narex too, some excellent and inexpensive Japanese (?-DIY store in Japan) ones, Henry Taylor paring chisels (same problem as Ashley Iles initially) And an old 1" Sorby with safe corners for braces. + 2 Cherries skew pair.
I have a 3mm Bhaco, that's good too.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:52 am 
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Clay S. wrote:
Hi John,
You got me in trouble with my wife.... I was going to suggest you check eBay for good used chisels, and thought I might take a quick look to see what was on offer. I found an old TH Witherby patternmakers chisel in a size I think will be useful and at a reasonable price, so of course I had to buy it....( the wife didn't think so)

There were other Witherby and PS&W chisels and many others not quite at flea market prices but some reasonably priced.


I must have gotten the bad ones.... My experience with "old rust" has not been good... And it's not for lack of trying. Let's just say I always seem to end up with the rough - and there was no diamond... ;)

After that - I basically decided to buy new instead of old....


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:07 am 
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We have some very old chisels and gouges in the shop that are amazing tools, including some E.A. Berg firmers and T. H. Witherby socketed handle longer-bladed Stanley 720 look-alikes, so it's worth reminding myself that - when shopping for chisels and gouges - vintage tools are inexpensive goodness. We have a box of blades purchased over the years at PATINA and other shows which just lack handles or some minor repair and some grinding to return them to service...I will certainly be at PATINA this year to find some deals...$3 for steel that just needs some TLC is a bargain. The most used chisel rack in the shop is a mismatched hodgepodge of tools from a wide array of makers, while the least used is the dusty-but-otherwise-pristine, full set of London pattern boxwood beauties that simply refuse to either feel comfortable in the hand or keep much of an edge. I'll be going for function over style...at least on chisels.

On the round-backs - we have found that it is not only new blades that need to be ground back a ways to get to good steel - many vintage blades appear to have been abused and then polished to hide the damage (the blue, 'burned' film on the bade buffs right off...first-hand knowledge ), so we usually (except with blades from a limited number of makers) wet-grind back a ways until the edge will behave.

My summer 'see something/learn something' vacation looks more and more like it may be a week or so with a blacksmith...I would love to make something as beautiful as the Damascus steel chisel that the boss has placed off limits to us mere mortals...it sits in a fitted case needing a key to unlock or a dire emergency to justify use. I would enjoy making up a set of whippy-bladed light paring chisels, but - understanding my limitations - will settle for a little more understanding of the process and variables.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:56 pm 
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I bought a set of Marples chisels some time around 1990 and they have been my go to ever since then. I'm intrigued at the idea of dipping them in olive oil but I'd hate to ruin them when they seem good enough. I am however very intrigued about making a chisel out of an old file. Would like to know more about that. I also have a Blue Spruce pairing chisel that gets a good amount of use. And finally one of those LMI glue chisels that seems to get almost daily use.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Hesh

Can you post a picture of one of your chisel handles next to ruler? I have to make a couple and I usually follow the Stanley 750/Lie Nielson pattern, but I am always looking for better

Ed


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:26 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1470
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
jfmckenna wrote:
I am however very intrigued about making a chisel out of an old file. Would like to know more about that...

Find an old file of the size you want for a chisel.

Grind the teeth off one face. This will be the back of the chisel. You must keep everything cool whilst doing this grinding and must keep the back as flat as possible so you don't have to spend ages hand honing to get the back flat. Grind on a bevel and sharpen. There is no need to grind the teeth off the top side of the blade. Add a handle.

It's pretty simple in principle, but keeping everything cool (to keep the hardness) and the back flat are the challenging parts. The edge will be very hard, therefore brittle, so don't expect to do anything but paring with such a chisel. My honing system uses only diamond plates.

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Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au



These users thanked the author Trevor Gore for the post: jfmckenna (Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:17 am)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:37 am
Posts: 697
First name: Murray
Last Name: MacLeod
City: Edinburgh
Country: UK
Trevor Gore wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
I am however very intrigued about making a chisel out of an old file. Would like to know more about that...

Find an old file of the size you want for a chisel.

Grind the teeth off one face. This will be the back of the chisel. You must keep everything cool whilst doing this grinding and must keep the back as flat as possible so you don't have to spend ages hand honing to get the back flat. Grind on a bevel and sharpen. There is no need to grind the teeth off the top side of the blade. Add a handle.

It's pretty simple in principle, but keeping everything cool (to keep the hardness) and the back flat are the challenging parts. The edge will be very hard, therefore brittle, so don't expect to do anything but paring with such a chisel. My honing system uses only diamond plates.


I rigged up a "poor man's surface grinder" years ago, which consisted of a 4 1/2"" angle grinder mounted in a birch ply frame with a threaded adjuster which went into the M10 socket where the handle normally goes. I used it for many things, in particular for squaring the sides of planes. Such a rig would be ideal for making chisels out of old files ... I can even visualize a magnetic table using recessed magnets to hold the file down . The back of the chisel would be guaranteed flat doing it this way.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:18 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
That sounds like a good idea Murray, I was struggling to think of how I can use my bench grinder to get a flat surface.


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