Official Luthiers Forum!

Be nice to see, got a pic?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

The "poor man's surface grinder" is probably lying around disassembled ... I don't really have a use for it these days ...but I have a "poor man's metal cutting chopsaw" which is somewhat similar, also constructed from birch ply, and I will take a couple of pics of that and post them later today.

I've got nothing but vintage and I find it is hard to get a bad one as long as you buy things in good shape, not used up or obviously abused. Pre-1935 or so, edge tools had laminated blades - a piece of very nice steel laminated onto the underside of a softer, less expensive steel. With many chisels and plane blades you can see the line. Once you have sharpened the tool past the good steel it is worthless. As I said, buy things in good shape, not used up or obviously abused.

I prefer long bladed chisels for most work - I find it easier to control them. By long, I mean 6" of blade below the tang or socket. Look on eBay for "long chisel", and then check out the ones with beveled edges. These tools are more for paring than for hitting like the square edge chisels. Good names are Stanley, Witherby, Barton, Jennings, Buck, Berg, Greenlee, Ohio Tool, Pexto (earlier was Peck, Stowe and Wilkocks or PS&W), and some of the best are by Swan. English makers I can vouch for are Marples and Sorby as long as they are older tools. Firms like Winchester, Remington HB&S, Keen Kutter, Craftsman, Fulton, and Dunlap did not make their own tools, but they are all good - they were made for them by some of the others.

I don't have a favorite, but one I use a lot on guitars is a pre-WW1 Buck Brothers 3/4" bevel edge chisel that is 6-3/4" below the tang. It is thin enough that I can flex it - not that I have to. I keep it at 20° and never strike it.

They are cheap enough on ebay that you can afford to get a stinker once in a while. I have a friend that has spent perhaps 6-7 years assembling a set of Pexto in 1/16" increments - he still has the 11/16" to go. He has put Ipe handles on all of them. He and I both like the shape of the early Stanley/current L-N handles for paring.

Ed

Ed,

Which of those would you recommend going after if you wanted the most consistently good chisels?

Stanley, I have a Greenlee that's as good, probably made by Stanley. But as far as every day my Blue Spruce paring chisels and Veritas PVMll get all the action, they cut better longer

The Swiss Pfeil are consistently decent for a reasonable price.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

FWIW paul sellers a youtube woodwork teacher has been an advocate of Aldi/s workzone chisels made in china for about $7 plus tax .he says they have sales 2 times a year. These chisels are allegedly an excellent buy requiring only back flattening and grinding an appproprate bevel. And if so inclined you can change the handles to suit yourself.

As for bang for the buck chisels go I also hear woodworkers give the Stanley Sweetheart chisels some pretty good reviews, same thing - they need to be tuned up. 4 piece set on Amazon now for about $80 bucks.

I tested a lot of chisels for Stew-Mac. I found the Two Cherries to be quite good and reasonable in price. The only down was they polish them to look pretty and in the process they can round over the edges a bit making the back harder to flatten all the way to the edge. I have heard you can get them unpolished, that would be good.
I have a few of these and like and use them. I have a large collection of Bergs, old Marples, Weatherbys, Japanese, etc. I also have some O1 steel ones I have made which are some of the best. I am more concerned about sharpening. The best chisel in the world is worthless if you can't sharpen it.
BTW the ubiquitous Stanleys with the steel cap , yellow and black handles from the 80's on back are really very good and out preformed many popular brands in my tests. The steel is fine grained and while I love my chisels if you told me all I could use the rest of my life were these it would not affect my work one bit. You can get these for a song. I know this isn't the sexy TAS solution but they work great. Grind off the plastic handle and put a fancy wood one on if you must.
You can get these so cheap you can have many to grind to suit specific needs as the needs arise in your work.

Some folks like pretty sets of things, I get that, I like having a big mix with some favorites. I "know" my chisels and steel. Some are easy to get along with and some are cranky and some need to be coaxed to get what I need from them. I like that, makes it seem like they have a personality and I have a relationship with my tools. Anyway if you want to spend a lot of $$$ you can but that won't guaranty better chisels. There are good to great chisels out there to be had for cheap. Better to learn to sharpen and tune IMO.
And FWIW I love and prefer O1 steel, especially for chisels and for plane irons as well unless I am planing bamboo or teak.
L.
L

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Hopefully the pics underneath will give some kind of idea .... this isn't the "poor man's surface grinder" , this is the "poor man's metal cutting chopsaw" but the basic principle is the same .... an angle grinder secured to an overhead mount, with the workpiece underneath. The pic with the plane shows how I ground my plane sides ...just clamped the plane sole to a perfectly square section of aluminum and slid it around underneath the grinding blade. In the grinder the swiveling arm is clamped rigid and a secondary M10 bolt fitted into the opposite tapped hole in the grinder body to provide fine adjustment for the grinding blade height.

+1

I have the set you are referring to. I am a novice woodworker, but, for the price they couldn't be beat. I don't remember exactly what I paid but I think I gave anywhere from 5 to 10 dollars for a set of 4. I flattened the back and sharpened them a little and they worked pretty well. I'm sure with proper honing and more attention they would be even better. They seem very similar to a cheaper Shop Fox chisel I gave $10 for.. Which I also enjoy.

A little off subject, but I also bought Aldi's Qucik Grip Bar Clamps at the same time. I bought 4 packs for $5 each. Out of the 20 clamps I bought I've only had one give me a little trouble.

-Garrett

You know Link, you make some good points.

In my "Rehardening chisels" post - I have gone through the process of hardening several chisels now.... It's interesting that the steel varies quite a bit between brands - but several of the well known UK and USA made forged "hardware store" chisel brands actually seem to have used some pretty good quality steel... Where we see them drop off is the tempering, finishing, and handles.

The place I am having trouble is the handles... Folks say "Oh... Just make your own".. I don't have a wood lathe and without one - Making handles is a much more difficult proposition. But.. That's also not really another hobby I really want to pursue at this point.

I am pretty sure I am not alone - most pix I see of chisels in the workshop show they all have the original handles.

But there's just nobody making chisel handles for sale - at least at the retail level.

There are a few

http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/chisels-gouges/tool-handles

https://www.amazon.com/Foreasy-Wooden-Handle-Chisel-Replacement/dp/B01N5LZD0Z/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1486754285&sr=8-4&keywords=chisel+handle

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have a new 3/8" Robert Sorby corner chisel Im quite impressed with.
Apart from that my Pfiel and German made LMI chisels perform their duty well.. Id love some Matsumura Japanese style chisels but haven't been able to afford any up to and incl now.
cheers
cw

always a cheap tool is a cost a good tool an investment. I have drawers full of chisels
a good starter set is the stanley sweethearts then you can get into other specific chisels.
Having been a wood carver I have many specialty tools that fall into many small tasks
often it isn't the chisel it is the loose nut behind it. Learn to sharpen. Hardening is ok if you know
what your doing . Not all steel is the same. there is a difference between an A2 and D2 and there
are many more alloys.
if you make them to hard your edge breaks too soft they roll over. I have made many chisels out of
old files . I like to quench at a straw color.
invest in a good sharpening stone set. If they don't shave they ain't sharp. I even have some chisels set up for left and right hand cutting.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Just an addendum to the discussion...I borrowed my boss's copies of Mr. Weyger's 'The Modern Blacksmith', 'The Recycling, Reuse, and Repair of Tools', and 'The Making of Tools', Larsen & Kelsey's 'Tool Making for Woodworkers', as well as Petrovich's 'Custom Tools for Woodworkers'. The Weygers books are now available in a single volume for a very good price, while the last two are available on the used book market. We make custom tools for bridge plate removal and a few other tasks, but I have not has the chance to make up something from scratch as of yet...looks fascinating!

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

"always a cheap tool is a cost a good tool an investment. I have drawers full of chisels"

I think many of us eventually have more chisels than we really need.
For the price of a cheap set of chisels you could buy -one- good chisel, and for guitar making I could get by with one good 1/2 inch chisel.

Wow... Isn't that true.

Before I started this current chisel crusade - I had 3 chisels in my normal rotation and 2 more for specialty duty..

But I got through my first 3 guitars with a garage sale 1" "big ole rusty socket chisel" that came with a handle made out of a chunk of shovel handle or broom handle..

Now - I have probably 15 more chisels...

I have to say - I really like the hardened Buck Brothers chisels. They are insanely hard, but don't chip quite as easily as the hardened LMI chisel. They work great for rosewood, Granadillo, Hormigo, Jatoba, and other hard, abrasive woods... Where my other chisels would have curled up their toes and been butter knife dull halfway through the cut. I still haven't cut off the cheesy plastic handles and put on real handles... But this is big progress for the sort of work I do.

Thanks

I am in the throes of trying out various chisels.. I dont think you quite appreciate how good you have it. Because I have to buy them, wait for them to arrive, check out and set up.. And only then do I discover that I dont particularly like them.

Oh how i wish I could go over to the local Tool Library and check out one of each 3/4" chisel on the market and test them out. I would be happy to pay for a rental even...

You can easily drop a medium sized fortune on all these different tools - only to find out (as you did) that you really don't like most of them for whatever reason... But now - you own them...

Groan...

I have had Weygers books for 40 years now-learned how to fabricate, harden and temper tools from scrap steel.

Great books with fantastic illustrations by the author.

Have any of the rebaked cheep chisels exceeded the performance of your Blue Spruce chisels? I have three and really enjoy using them, prettiest chisels made. For outright cutting performance I have a set of the Veritas PVM-11. My older antique Stanleys, Greenlees have been relegated to scraping, glue clean-up etc.

I have a number of different chisels in the shop. My go-to chisels (since this is a generic question, and different applications benefit from different chisels) for general work are seventies Two Cherries/Ulmia ... they are not the same as what you buy today - I think they were imported by Woodcraft back in the day. Not sure how else they got to the USA. I particularly appreciate their balance and general ergonomics. The steel is excellent and quite hard, especially after 40 years. They are not easy to find, but with some persistence are still available.

My Lie Nielsens are can't go wrong chisels, ready out of the box. As Link pointed out, the Two Cherries (old and new) are polished and they FREQUENTLY ruin the edges, especially on the back of the chisel. If you are picky and argue over what constitutes "flat", you will spend significant time prepping the Ulmia/Two Cherries, but when they are done ... butter. With Lie Nielsen, you are good to go - they are reasonably priced in that regard. I will also say that I have a few Bruce Spruce long paring chisels and like their feel when doing touchy work. Lots of feedback in the blade.

But as instrument makers, we use chisels differently than furniture guys ... so if doing just instruments, a few key chisels can go a long way.

Andy

Another fan of the Weygers' books here. I visited Mr. Weygers at his home in Carmel Valley in 1978. Two decades of gentrification had surrounded his place with tennis courts and swimming pools, but a narrow lane still led to the wonderful hobbit house he'd built. Some ramshackle outbuildings held his blacksmith shop and printmaking studio. The studio was a shock when you opened the door: every surface gleaming and dust free as any Silicon Valley clean room. In the picture below, the timber framer's slick is one I forged in 1979. The knife and chisels were made specifically for guitar work beginning about twenty years ago.


But my favorite chisel is the James Swan chisel pictured in my avatar:

I found it among my grandfather's tools when he died after 50 years of farming followed by 25 years of house carpentry.

Eric

Nice job on the slick - sockets are not easy. All of those tools look delicious.

Ed

Digging through the various tool stashes in the shop, I found several S.J. Addis and Herring cast steel carving gouges tucked away in a foot locker full of molding planes. Adding to that stash, the boss was recently gifted a very old, very pretty, dainty little S.J. Addis veiner gouge with shop-made segmented handles as well. After a bit of honing on the gouges (the veiner was gifted razor sharp from the other luthier) , I had some fun working some pearwood and white oak scraps on the big bench...what splendid tools, and what wonderful edges! I have not done that much carving, so really cannot offer a comparison with the modern Pfeil and Henry Taylor tools in the shop's carving tool rolls, but these 19th C. and very early 20th C. tools seem to be amazingly durable in the white oak we have here in the shop. I harbor a secret ambition - perhaps not so secret now! - to try some linen-fold carvings in English oak. There is a nice old country church out my way that features them in some of the frame and panel work, and the subtle tool marks left by those craftsmen speak to me as no machine-carved surface does.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)