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Water based Target EM9000
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Author:  michaeltulloch [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Water based Target EM9000
I just went through a complete round of coats with EM 9000 water based urethane. FUJI hvlp. Despite all my efforts working through 18 light coats....I continued to have a cratering effect ( numerous small surface of the moon shallow depressions). Temperature of the room, gun and finish in the can, all the same ,round 75 deg F. Careful climate control in spray room. Seemed to flow out of gun just fine.
Has anyone here encountered this (with the em9000), ...the gallon was purchased 6 months ago, and opened for the first time 2 weeks ago.

Thank you.

Michael
Author:  Glen H [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
If they are little craters, I would suspect fisheyes from contamination. Are you familiar with fisheyes?
Author:  johnparchem [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I used it once and my wet coats were too thick and I ended up with a blue instrument. But it was smooth without craters. I did read you did light coats which is good. I think 3 mils wet coats is recommended.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I learned the hard way not to pour unused finish back into the can for reuse, and to strain the finish going into the sprayer cup.

Alex
Author:  michaeltulloch [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Ah.....ok. I DO pour the remains of the gun back into the can each time. So this is bad? Every time I use a strainer (paper throwaway pro cones) when pouring the finish to whatever. Also...I've heard of fish eye, but not familiar with it. Looked it up on the web...looks like what I have. Contaminates.....not sure what or where this would be from. No silicone in the shop. Period. Light soap residual from clean up maybe? I had the blue haze with the EM6000 lacquer, but not the urethane. When I go to level sand at whatever point as needed...I finish up wiping with 50/50 water and alcohol.
Author:  kencierp [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I have not used EM6000 but most waterborne coating have a warning similar to this:

"NEVER use stearated sandpaper between coats. Use a quality sandpaper such as 3M 216u or 246u Gold, or wet/dry sandpaper with a small amount of water instead."

The stearated compound applied to the abrasive helps prevent clogging but it is a soap -- which usually is not a problem with solvent based coatings.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Michael, how are you faring on your guitar?

I'm always interested in a new finish.
Author:  michaeltulloch [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Hi Joe; Not a happy ending. Worst finishing experience I've had yet...in 20 guitars. Finish from hell, for me....now after all is said and now done. Just went through the buffing round. Guitar needs to be sanded back to bare wood, neck and body, and I don't have the energy for that. I do not recommend you mess with it. There may be others who have worked with this stuff, and love it. This is just one man's experience here. Epic fail.
Author:  johnparchem [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
michaeltulloch wrote:
Hi Joe; Not a happy ending. Worst finishing experience I've had yet...in 20 guitars. Finish from hell, for me....now after all is said and now done. Just went through the buffing round. Guitar needs to be sanded back to bare wood, neck and body, and I don't have the energy for that. I do not recommend you mess with it. There may be others who have worked with this stuff, and love it. This is just one man's experience here. Epic fail.


Consider a striper, that is what I used when I had to remove the EM9000 from an instrument I finished with it. I bought the stripper at a hardware store. It bubbled the finish right off.
Author:  sdsollod [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I have had good luck with EM6000. Very pleased, in fact. Wonder what makes 9000 different... I think I'll stick with 6000.
Author:  johnparchem [ Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
sdsollod wrote:
I have had good luck with EM6000. Very pleased, in fact. Wonder what makes 9000 different... I think I'll stick with 6000.


I gone through a couple of gallons of EM6000. I thought EM9000 was basically the same with a higher solids percentage. It is less forgiving in terms of wet film thickness which is how I ended up with a blue instrument. I never had a catering problem.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
michaeltulloch wrote:
Hi Joe; Not a happy ending. Worst finishing experience I've had yet...in 20 guitars. Finish from hell, for me....now after all is said and now done. Just went through the buffing round. Guitar needs to be sanded back to bare wood, neck and body, and I don't have the energy for that. I do not recommend you mess with it. There may be others who have worked with this stuff, and love it. This is just one man's experience here. Epic fail.


Thanks for the feed back Michael. I'm going to heed your advice and take that off my list of finishes to try.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Why? Because one person had a bad experience? I've used it plenty of times. Planning to use again this year. I think if you polled the forum, You would find some that like, some that don't. Most finishing issues are process related. EM 6000 has been around for a while. Target Coatings has a forum where you can ask questions and have them answered by the owner.

The OP's problem appears surface related. Waxy shellac? Sterated paper?

Mike
Author:  Colin North [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
EM9000 vs EM6000?
Author:  michaeltulloch [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Mike O'Melia , is right...I wanted to stress this is my problem, and not to bash the product. But I'm entitled to a personal opinion, and I believe this particular substance is not good for guitars, ... for me.. For this reason: it does not burn into the coats before. EM6000 does burn in...and for me that was a key factor. I liked EM6000, liked the WB aspect, the quality of the gloss,and the finish itself looked great in the end, but I thought it was too soft at the time, so I moved to the 9000 hoping it would be a similiar product / experience only a harder finish. It was a harder finish, but different in ways I didn't address effectively I guess. The cratering was a HUGE problem...you can look it up, I did, and took steps to alleviate...but to no success. Witness lines...again, I knew early on, but was unable to overcome. Maybe EM6000 with their crosslinker additive might be a good process. Maybe. And finally, again my opinion...the finish itself after buffing....seems unappealing to me, detracting from, rather than adding to the wow factor one hopes to achieve on the final guitar. I do sunbursts mostly... and while 9000 is super clear, it was not a finish that pops.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Mike O'Melia wrote:
Why? Because one person had a bad experience? I've used it plenty of times. Planning to use again this year. I think if you polled the forum, You would find some that like, some that don't. Most finishing issues are process related. EM 6000 has been around for a while. Target Coatings has a forum where you can ask questions and have them answered by the owner.

The OP's problem appears surface related. Waxy shellac? Sterated paper?

Mike

There may be plenty of good reviews out there but thus far, they have eluded me. Since I don't have much of a pioneer spirit, I will need to see a few before I give it a try.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I take it back!!! Argh. Posting before coffee. Never a good thing. I saw EM6000, but now I see u said EM9000. So sorry for reading it wrong. I agree. I had read many mixed reviews on EM9000, though I cannot recall the details.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I remember talking to Jeff at Target. I was curious about the cross linker. But all I got were cagey responses that I could not decipher. I decided he did not think it a useful instrument finish. If u use the cross linker, forget burn in. Maybe that's why.
Author:  michaeltulloch [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Thank you Mike......my advise, stay away from EM9000. WB, is not the future.
Good Night.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
michaeltulloch wrote:
Thank you Mike......my advise, stay away from EM9000. WB, is not the future.
Good Night.


I have not tried EM9000, but in my case, WB isn't the future because it's both the present and the past. At least for EM6000, which I've been using for six years and am quite happy with.
Author:  kencierp [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
Quote:
Thank you Mike......my advise, stay away from EM9000. WB, is not the future.
Good Night.



My advise in regard to WB products is be prepared for a learning curve -- in other words make sure you are using a manufacturers recommended process, especially chemical compatibility. I prefer nitro but have had spectacular results with WB coatings, my fav is from General Finishes. I know of high line builders ($8000+) that swear by their chosen WB products. For me I had to forget what I thought I needed to do, when I got with the WB program all was good.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
I've done the last few with Nitro but the rest have been done with various Grafted coatings finishes, all WB. They all have many attributes but I still haven't found the perfect one. I thought about biting the bullet and moving to a UV cured finish. But then I noticed the safety precautions you have to take for the UV and the spray, coupled with the $2000+ price tag of a UV handheld. That scared me away, at least for now.

I really appreciate threads like this and all the information that you all so freely share. I'll probably learn about my next finish right here.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
General Finishes and Target Coatings make great waterborne products. Note the term: waterborn. That means the finish product is born in a water solvent instead of a volatile solvent. I swear, Enduro Var smells just like polyurethane minus the high solvent odor. It's a Urethane product carried by water. Sort of. The future IS waterborn. And once u figure them out, u will love them. Carcinogens and explosive solvents put use out of reach of average hobbyists (practically). I have had great results with Enduro-Var and EM6000. Figure them out.
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
EM7000 is the high solids version of EM6000. I believe they are the same thing, never used 7000. If true, I wish they had named it EM6000HS instead. Confusion reigns. And that's their fault. In my mind, Target would do better to use descriptive names. Urethane, acrylic, etc
Author:  michaeltulloch [ Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water based Target EM9000
A harder final finish for the EM6000...with burn in, would make me happy. I'm curious...What brand / type of WB are the high-end builders using?

Thank you for your opinions, guys...it's been a help..
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