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Please Help!
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49171		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Please Help!
As many of you know Dave Collins and I own Ann Arbor Guitars and have been operating this business as how we make our livings for four years this April 1st. April Fools day I know.... ;)

Recently a personal comment from one of our personal FaceBook pages expressing a political preference... was picked up by another Facebook site that launches members to boycott and post FAKE reviews of businesses.....

We went from 41 five star reviews ONLY.... and a five star rating to nearly 30 one star reviews over night.... The one star reviews are FAKE and from people all over the country who don't even understand what we do and that we are NOT a music store.

Long story short our business has been harmed and now we are trying to recover.

Our friends and clients who follow us on FaceBook noticed the fake reviews and are currently engaged in posting positive 5 star reviews AND in some cases taking on the FAKE reviews and the people who posted them. It's a very humbling thing personally for me to witness and I can't begin to express how grateful both Dave and I are.

My request to OLFers: As you know I've been here over a decade now, Dave too and we often help others. My post counter had to be stopped with the old software at 10,000 and restarted with a new ID making me the most prolific poster ever on the OLF. Hopefully you will have noticed that Dave and I have rarely if ever asked for others to help us. Our time here has been helping others for the most part.

Because of the potential damage to our business I would respectfully request that if you are on FaceBook or use Google that new, positive reviews would be much appreciated. You don't have to falsely claim that you are a client even though many of the folks here who have taken our classes are in fact customers in that sense. If Dave or I have ever helped you on the forum or behind the scenes and you think that we are good people please leave a review at the FaceBook link below OR for our Ann Arbor Guitars listing on Google.

I am aware that this matter became political.... but that's the rub.... We both believe that everyone is still entitled to have personal opinions and not have that result in people attacking our workplaces. Sadly we may be wrong these days....

Below is the link to our FaceBook page, a full explanation of what happened can be found on the "Home" page. Some language in the Fake reviews and explanation is best for adults...... If you would like to help us control the damage and get our business back to a rating that we have worked very hard to "earn" please do.

Ann Arbor Guitars was a result of Dave Collins and I meeting each other because of the OLF..... Please help?

Many, many thanks!

FaceBook
https://www.facebook.com/pg/a2guitars/reviews/?ref=page_internal

Google
https://www.google.com/#q=ann+arbor+guitars&*&lrd=0x883cae3e9afb68ad:0x5be1ea597c4708d6,3,
Author:  krl [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Done. Sorry to hear this is happening to you guys.
Author:  david farmer [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
One of MLK's favorite quotes:

“Truth, crushed to earth, shall rise again,” William Cullen Bryant

Hang tough Hesh.
Author:  Glen H [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I don't do Facebook so I can't help but I'm surprised that Facebook allows these type of sites to exist. Isn't anyone held accountable?
Author:  joe white [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I don't do Facebook either and it's stories like this that enable me to continue to ignore it. I can't deny the potential advantages that it can have to a business but as you've explained here Hesh, there can often be a cost. I hope only the best for you guys to weather and rise above this distraction.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Hesh can't you just delete that junk off of your facebook page?
Author:  ernie [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Maybe you can contact the FB team to see if they can resolve your problem with these fraudsters
???
Author:  B. Howard [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I saw Dave's post....Chuckled myself. I operate the same type of "Client environment" myself. Those who no us love us and those who hate will hate....
Reviews done! Good luck!
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I'm reading the comments now. IMHO the self moderation is going on nice and strong. Just stay calm and state your position as you have by pointing out that these people have never visited the store and so on. I love the comment about the women who lives in India and also the self moderated rebuff to one Chris Miler by Nanci Frazier LOL!

What we do on the FB pages that I maintain is have a policy right up front, any posts that don't adhere to that policy are removed. that would include personal insults, racism and so on. The same can be applied to reviews however you have to report them: https://www.facebook.com/help/439579999521224/?ref=u2u
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Done what I can, and FB should be able to do something too.
In your security settings you can opt to vet posts before allowing them on your page.
Author:  sdsollod [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Sometimes I question the value of social media. I guess it has redeeming value, but it seems like it is also misused. Users have no filters and since they don't have to identify themselves they seem to feel like they can say things that can be hurtful to others. I have avoided using social media. There is a disturbing trend of fake news, lack of ethics, and the lack of the notion of doing the right thing. Hesh, I have very much enjoyed hearing from you in the OLF posts. You are always respectful of others and helpful in your comments. I have learned a great deal from you.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Not a Flakebook user here (and this is another good reason not to be), but I will forward the link to some of my pals who can assist Hesh and Dave against the onslaught.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
A huge thanks to everyone and some very good advice here that we will be looking into. Some of you have contacted us off the forum and gone into great detail with very welcome advice, many, many thanks to you folks too!

I'm not a FaceBook user and my real last hurrah with anything on-line has been the OLF. As I am getting older the OLF has helped my personal dream of working on guitars for a living come true. My life is far simpler now, no stinkin airports, meetings, etc. I actually look forward to coming to A2 Guitars every day and since I do the in and out in the same day stuff it's always ever changing and infinitely interesting.

Not trying to be critical here but some of the comments about the pitfalls of social media were always on my mind too. I claimed my FB page just to lock it down and not use it.

As such Hesh here is clueless about using FaceBook. I believe, but could be very wrong that business pages don't have as much control as personal pages. When you folks talk about deleting comments I don't see that we have the ability to do that with reviews on a business FB page. We have no ability to do this with Google.....

Both Google and FB don't seem to have any way to interact with a human where you can offer a narrative. All I've seen are a few boxes to check and something has to fit into a cut and dried category.

Anyway what's most important to me here on the OLF is to thank you guys (men and women) for your help and some very special thanks too to some of you who are examples to follow or try to in terms of personal honor and integrity. Maybe something good will come out of all of this and that's my sincere hope.

Thanks gain everyone!
Author:  giltzow [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Put a post on your facebook page. Sorry this happened to you - I have always and will always appreciate your willingness to share information and help others with problems they encounter. - Mike G
Author:  mqbernardo [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
jeez... that´s really lame. but i´m sure it will fade away... it´s all foam and the mob will find another thing to hate in time. in the end, your work should speak for itself. did what i could do (admittedly little) i sent 5 stars review your way.

hang in there, and thanks for all the help and info shared.
Author:  Woodie G [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I have to look at the value proposition here...on the one hand, you run the risk of alienating half (slightly more or slightly less, depending on your particular point of view) of your potential customer base by expressing a political point of view, as well as gaining the notice of some portion of those 94 million non-working 'working age' adults that have nothing but time on their hands...time to (unlikely) help out at the local homeless shelter, (somewhat likely) watch a lot of reality TV, or (very likely) to harass small business people on social media. On the other hand, expressing that view feels good - like peeing while swimming off a Maine beach on a nice early July day - despite what is likely minimal impact and one might hope, general disinterest on the part of the rest of humanity.

The prevailing point of view we see in the shop is that our customers really could not possibly care less about our views, provided we build and/or fix their instruments. Much like this forum, we have a firm rule that politics and religion are excluded from the shop. Much like this site, in fact.

I'm not certain as to how to undo this, other than to suggest that you suspend customer posts for a few weeks and scrub your site of your initiating comment, the obnoxious responses to that advertisement of your political beliefs, and those equally obnoxious, 'helpful' ratings which at best appear to be clumsy attempts at political satire or outright ridicule. Good luck!
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Review done, Hesh! I'm pretty sure there's another one from last year, as well. From a perspective north of the border, I'd have to say that Trump and his entourage are pretty thin skinned. Our politicians are regularly accosted by, and lampooned by the cast of the TV shows This Hour has 22 Minutes, and the Rick Mercer Report, and they laugh at themselves. Whether they like it or not, they understand that most of us can laugh at ourselves, and our differing views without the hate and vitriol that David and AAG have had directed at them.
The thing about haters is that they usually have a short attention span, and will soon go off on someone else for their hate du jour. Those who are in you corner will remain there, and draw like minded people to your business by referral.
Picking a word fight with Dave Collins? That's a losing proposition!
Author:  kencierp [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
This is a guitar building forum right? --- I sense this thread is moving to a slippery slope
Author:  bcombs510 [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Hesh, check your PM's.

Generally speaking, astroturfing is frowned upon from both sides (malicious and supportive). Of course we could argue that everyone here is leaving a valid review because they know your business. Just be careful about how far you reach out for reviews to try to swing the rating.

I'll be in touch.

Brad
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I looked at the nutty posts. Anyone that's been around Facebook will recognize that they are not valid.

Too bad. I sweetened the pot as well.

Hesh have you seen that sci-fi series on Netflix where everyone rates everyone else and the entire social order is based on your number of stars?
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Terence Kennedy wrote:
I looked at the nutty posts. Anyone that's been around Facebook will recognize that they are not valid.

Too bad. I sweetened the pot as well.

Hesh have you seen that sci-fi series on Netflix where everyone rates everyone else and the entire social order is based on your number of stars?


Hey Terry! Thanks much for your help too my friend.

I haven't seen that series but I am known to binge watch when he weather sucks so it just got added to the list. :)
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
bcombs510 wrote:
Hesh, check your PM's.

Generally speaking, astroturfing is frowned upon from both sides (malicious and supportive). Of course we could argue that everyone here is leaving a valid review because they know your business. Just be careful about how far you reach out for reviews to try to swing the rating.

I'll be in touch.

Brad


Hey Brad!

Completely agree and that's why I asked folks who have had direct, personal knowledge of Dave, me, our business only to offer an honest review if they wish too. We do service over 1,100 instruments annually and have a huge client list and I am believing that most of the reviews from people who actually talk about us are real reviews. We are very fortunate indeed.

Much of who we help on the forums is behind the scenes and kept private. Been doing this for a very long time now.... and still enjoy the heck out of talking all things guitar building, repairing, etc. Everything but what I am really compensating for, being a lousy player.....;)

I didn't get to all the PMs yet so more to come and thanks a million too for your help!!!
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
kencierp wrote:
This is a guitar building forum right? --- I sense this thread is moving to a slippery slope


You are absolutely correct Ken my friend.

Please folks this is just a couple of Luthiers asking for a bit of assistance if you see fit and also if you have actual experience with us. Getting political is the last thing that I would ever want here and you know what..... pretty much anywhere now too..... The price was WAY too high and Woody is absolutely correct, let's keep it about guitars please.
Author:  Hesh [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
Woodie G wrote:
I have to look at the value proposition here...on the one hand, you run the risk of alienating half (slightly more or slightly less, depending on your particular point of view) of your potential customer base by expressing a political point of view, as well as gaining the notice of some portion of those 94 million non-working 'working age' adults that have nothing but time on their hands...time to (unlikely) help out at the local homeless shelter, (somewhat likely) watch a lot of reality TV, or (very likely) to harass small business people on social media. On the other hand, expressing that view feels good - like peeing while swimming off a Maine beach on a nice early July day - despite what is likely minimal impact and one might hope, general disinterest on the part of the rest of humanity.

The prevailing point of view we see in the shop is that our customers really could not possibly care less about our views, provided we build and/or fix their instruments. Much like this forum, we have a firm rule that politics and religion are excluded from the shop. Much like this site, in fact.

I'm not certain as to how to undo this, other than to suggest that you suspend customer posts for a few weeks and scrub your site of your initiating comment, the obnoxious responses to that advertisement of your political beliefs, and those equally obnoxious, 'helpful' ratings which at best appear to be clumsy attempts at political satire or outright ridicule. Good luck!


Many thanks Woody and your help has been very, very welcome indeed! Both Dave and I thank you kindly and appreciate what you offered above and on our page.

You nailed what a businesses posture should be and we could not agree with you more.
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Please Help!
I offered a little help as well Hesh. And I agree with the feelings here, as bad as it seems today, over the next while it won't be a blip on the radar screen. Wishing you both continued success at A2.

Shane
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