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| Dead Bone Saddle http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49225 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Dead Bone Saddle |
I have not had this happen before. A guitar I built was in for some work. Lower action. I decided to shape a new saddle. No matter what I did, I could not get it work with the pickup. I could swap new and old out and get dramatic results. Never got new one to work. Ended up reshaping old and moving on. Can some bone just be "dead"? |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Under saddle pickup? Slot and saddle dead flat? |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
yes. dead flat. I've done this many times. never seen this happen. want to figure it out |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
What Joe said. Often dead USTs or balance problems can be the the saddle slot is not perfectly flat or the saddle bottom is also not perfectly flat. We always make a pencil mark on the saddle bottom and take a few swipes on the surface plate with 220 or so on it to remove the marks ensuring a flat saddle bottom. For guitars without a UST I like the saddle to be snug enough that I can lift the guitar an inch off the bench with just the saddle, neck supported, just lift the body a tad. When I install USTs I additionally remove saddle width ever so slightly so that the saddle lifts out easily with just my fingers not lifting the guitar. I don't want it loose enough that it rocks, just so it pulls right out and can move up and down on the UST with string vibration. You may have a binding (too wide or possibly too long) saddle and/or the saddle slot's bottom and/or saddle bottom are not flat. One more tip. Many USTs have dead ends or in other words don't pick-up well near the UST tip. We drill into the corner of the saddle slot at about 30 degrees maybe 1/8th an inch to tuck the end and more importantly expose the more homogenous part of the UST to the end region of the saddle. This could be the treble end, usually is but also could be installed at the bass end too. Much of the time balance issues with USTs can be solved by flattening the saddle slot, saddle bottom, tucking the UST end, loosening the saddle fit in the slot AND checking to ensure proper break angle over the saddle too so that the string pressure is downward. Food for thought: We have a fully made bridge that's flat and has a flat saddle slot. We install the bridge on a domed guitar top and even though the bridge flattens out the dome being that the bridge is a major brace the bridge also somewhat conforms to the guitar top dome. Is the saddle slot still flat? This is one of the reasons why Dave developed the Collins Saddle Mill. Not pushing product just exposing a real-world reason why we use it. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
maybe a bad transducer always check your wires first. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
I suppose that it's also possible that very greasy bone that has not been degreased well could be high dampening as well. The battery would be on the check-list too. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Battery, check. Pencil marks and flattening, check. My test was: insert new saddle under bass e, tighten a bit, check sound through amp. Nothing. Insert old saddle, lots of sound. Saddle bottoms dead flat and level. Never seen this before. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
I'm curious do the saddle vary much in density? |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
That's weird Mike! If you just insert the end of the saddle over the bass area of the UST (saddle sticking end wise straight up in the air) and tap the other end of the saddle does the pup respond? Maybe the slot is narrower toward the bottom and the saddle, V shaped, and the saddle is not fully seating with all it's surface on the UST? |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Hesh, ur idea has merit. And I never thought about reversing the saddle. The original was thinner. Yes, this repair is related to another recent thread on the foil missing transducer. What is in there now is a new transducer. |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
If the original was thinner - maybe a bit too tight in the slot. Or perhaps a slightly warped saddle pushing on the sides of the slot - even though it measures the same thickness. Theres also a possibility of an internal crack in the bone that makes it misbehave. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Well, I purposely rerouted the slot. It was definitely domed... my fault. So the idea of an ill fitting saddle didn't strike me as a possibility. We will never know. I'm not taking it apart again. It sounds awesome. Plays great. It just gets more expensive to keep fooling around with it. Thank you for all the input. I will file the advice away for the future. Mike |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Well, I purposely rerouted the slot. It was definitely domed... my fault. So the idea of an ill fitting saddle didn't strike me as a possibility. We will never know. I'm not taking it apart again. It sounds awesome. Plays great. It just gets more expensive to keep fooling around with it. Thank you for all the input. I will file the advice away for the future. Mike are you sure it's your fault? seriously...think about it... tops move over time, and said movement can result in the bridge being deformed...e.g. over time the top became more domed than originally made, and the bridge followed suit and the route for the saddle became curved... a much better thing than when Taylor warranty replaced the bridge on my '86 K20-ce and didn't take the time to fit said bridge to the over domed top...result was guitar was returned to me a day before a big gig, I find route for saddle domed, and have to make a new saddle to match said dome so that pickup responds correctly within a 24 hour time period...sheeshus... either way, the whole concept of whatever about bridges is a great argument for routing the slot for the saddle after it has been attached to the top...e.g. doing that has a far better chance of the route for the saddle being true and flat (devil says after initial route enough material is removed that over time stress will result is slot needing to be redone to keep true flatness) |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Anybody who has worked on vintage Martins knows full well that the saddle slot deforms, and the saddle itself deforms to conform to the contour of the slot... especially on through saddles. Some purists say that the deformed saddle/ saddle slot should be maintained. I say stuff that ... rout the saddle slot flat and flatten the saddle base to fit. On a through saddle this can mean that the saddle ends recede slightly from the contoured slope at the bridge ends ... so make a new saddle. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dead Bone Saddle |
Well, it is true that the guitar sounded fine through the pickup when I built it. Guess it "adjusted". No way that would have left my shop sounding dead. |
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