david farmer wrote:
Hey Don,
Humans apparently just can't overcome the urge to empty a bottle of glue into a neck joint.
Humans apparently just can't overcome the urge to empty a bottle of glue into a neck joint.
True dat.
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| Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext.? http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49228 |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
Quote: If your body is built strong, and the neck-to-body joint is built right, it won't fail, ever. Interesting comment -- I for one would like to see your design and long term data. Bob Taylor took on what is thought to be an inevitable occurrence over time and perhaps made the bolt on neck acceptable but more importantly made makers plan ahead to cope with the forces of nature. Frank Ford's neck set reality: http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musicia ... angle.html |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
Yeah, I always go for the shock effect in all my comments. Everyone refers to factory built guitars when foretelling the certain need for the neck reset. I don't build a factory guitar, I build a guitar that sounds real good and is designed to last a long time. I reset a lot of Martin necks. Most of the ones built in the 90's fall out of the slot at the mere mention of a steam rig. I don't know what kind of glue they are using, but it isn't very good. Of course my vision may be clouded by the fact that I only get the ones that need work. I myself use a straight mortise & tenon joint, glued with hot hide glue, pulled in with 2 cabinet assembly screws that are removed. The need of most every neck reset I have seen is that the body has deformed, or the neck was over or under-set at the factory, not a failure at the neck joint. I started using early-on a bracing pattern above the x-brace to minimize deformation at the upper bout, the "A" brace between the neck block and the upper X arms. I'm not saying that a guitar left in a closed car in summer will not fail, nor a guitar left in the water on a canoe trip. I'm saying that most any close-fitting and well-glued neck to body joint can be relied upon to last a lifetime. A well designed and well-glued top bracing pattern can also last a lifetime. If one or two guitars prove that you aren't perfect, and has a failure, it can be repaired. Factories have to plan for failure, I don't. |
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| Author: | michael jennings [ Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
Not sure exactly if I've got your question clear??? But check out Michael Gurian's early guitars... He used a dovetail with tapered cross pins in the neck block transversely.... Even had a special tool for removing/installing the pins for resets. He doesn't build much any more that I am aware of but produces binding and marquetry used by many top end manufactures. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
david farmer wrote: Hey Don, Humans apparently just can't overcome the urge to empty a bottle of glue into a neck joint. True dat.
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
When I do the dovetail joint I pre drill the steam holes, which are then covered by the fret. When that future repair person pulls the fret it's obvious that the steam is going to be directed in exactly the right place. I think you are worrying too much about this steam thing. It's no more difficult than releasing the fretboard extension. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
I appreciate all of the input. I think I now feel more comfortable with the idea of using glue (a sparse amount) as part of a traditional dovetail. I don't want a future repair person to encounter something unusual, because that could make the neck removal even worse for the guitar. The one thing I was hoping to hear more about, but didn't, was whether anyone has had to repair a guitar that has a wood screw instead of the glue inside the dovetail (i.e., like Grit Laskin or Judy Threet uses). If those of you who do a lot of repair work have ever worked on one of those guitars, it would be great to hear your thoughts on how that version of a dovetail worked. Thanks again. |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
Don, I stumbled across another of the Canadian screwed (no pun intended!) Dovetail crew. It made me think of your quest. :37 into this video from David Wren, he appears to be drilling for the screw. Looks like Sergei deJonge Might be the originator. I'm surprised at the number of high end luthiers using it. They must know the good and bad about it by now. On one hand, they are all acomplished luthiers. One the other, instruments at that price tend to be treated a hell of alot better than is typical. I always try to contact a builder before surgery if there is anything unique. It is the ultimate cut to the chase move. Almost all are happy someone is taking the time. I frequently get some other useful information. Like the time a classic builder mentioned in passing that the bridge I was going to replace was on with polyurethane glue! I've still never seen a screwed dovetail. I'll probably stay against it in theory right up until I disassemble one with ease. Then my faith might be tested.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLAnKK-gfTI |
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| Author: | truckjohn [ Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
The list of luthiers using this screwed dovetail joint style is interesting in that they all came out of Larivee's shop.. Perhaps Larivee originally used/tested a joint like this and eventually changed back to a standard glued dovetail? |
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| Author: | philosofriend [ Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dovetail with locking pin and no glue except for FB ext. |
It seems that one of your worries is steam undoing the stacked heel and the stacked endblock. That worry is quite rational. Wouldn't it be easier to use solid wood, or glue the stacks up with a water resistant glue with a breakdown temperature higher than the boiling point of water? Epoxy is good to 350 F. CA to a little higher than that. I just repaired a shattered dovetail that I was worried about so I added a screw doing double duty as the strap button screw. I had to make a strange washer to distribute the force to a larger wood area of the heel than just the end of the strap button. The finished job looks normal, and a future repairman would see the screw right away. This would save you having to install the screw from inside. |
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