Official Luthiers Forum!

I see that most builders run their finger braces off the lower x but some off the upper x. Is one safer than the other or sound different? Maybe I should say Im not interested in the traditional Martin tone.

Interesting, 93 people have read my question and no one has a thought about it. I would have thought there would have been some comments.
I wish I had added if there were thoughts about the tongue depressor finger braces some people use. Whats the effect of that or is there any.
If I got to replies Im going to assume neither make a difference or no one has thought about them.

It seems like if the rotational force is right around the bridge, then putting them off of the lower X would tend to counter that Force a little more than the other way around.

What kind of tone are you after?

I've never seen anyone run them off of the upper X, if it ain't broke.......

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

_________________
Pat

I believe they primarily control "wolf tones" and where would you put them on the upper X?

I too have never seen them on the upper part of the x.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Lowden

But it makes more sense the Martin way, imo.

I guess its working for Lowden. Of course theres more to the Lowden gutar than its finger braces but it seems to me its an area that hasnt been explored. Why one or the other and what if you just make them flat like some of the cheap Martins. Maybe they have a good idea instead of all that carving. Im not saying its a good idea I just am wondering what the contribution the finger braces make. I dont know if its an idea that has been explored before. For example I once watched a video of John Mayes spending a lot of time with the finger braces. He didnt like the sound before his work. Apparently the finger braces were important to him.

I believe Mario Proulx also has the finger braces coming down from the top of the X braces.
There's a video from Bourgois showing him working on the finger braces and flexing the top constantly.

I was just looking at Trevors site and his finger braces dont touch the top or bottom of his x braces.

I read your post but didn't understand it. I think I need to see a picture.

IMHO anything forward of the main X-Brace, so just forward of the notch to include the sound hole, the sound hole braces, and the UTB and or including a Popsicle stick brace is not a tonal area of the guitar but rather a structural area.

Are you talking about A-Bracing?

Lowden bracing pic, typical.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Interesting. It changes the idea of the finger braces from a structural one to a sort of tone bar array. I can imagine the idea is to have more of the long dipole or what ever that long wave motion is called that is parallel to the bridge. I also imagine that is for a non pinned bridge?

Yes that Lowden pic is what I meant about off the upper x. The additional question about tongue depressor shape is yes like the Martin A bracing which they also do on the hybrid x.
I dont like the sound of Martin guitars with A bracing but more is involved than flat finger braces. I dont think Ive played a hybrid x. It has been said often that a guitar is the sum of its parts and that every part makes a difference. So it makes sense to me that changes in the finger braces would make some kind of difference. The differences in x braces have been quantified well but Ive not seen any discussion re the treatments of the finger braces.

This would all be a matter of attribution and speculation. Yes, a guitar is the sum of it's parts, but can you say that the position of finger braces makes it sound like this_______? I suspect not. About as far out on a limb I would crawl is to say that X bracing sounds different than ladder, and Larson laminated X bracing sounds different than either of those two...

surely you would agree to more than that. dont scalloped braces sound different than straight braces?

I have always considered the function of the finger braces to be grain crack reducers.

Perhaps I am not as industrious as others -- but I prefer to be a "copy cat." Rather than speculate what the sound of a modified or new design "might" sound like I simply do my best to reverse engineer (attain and then copy) the dimensions and materials of an instrument that sounds good to me.

Might be wrong but I think I could pick out the ladder braced L00's in a "X" versus Ladder blind test.

_________________
Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

The Martin or Lowden patterns don't look too different if you think of the braces in the lower bout (sonically) as tying the area together to produce a large coherent diaphragm to produce a piston motion.


But then again, what do I know?

Could not agree more....

Nearly a day does not go by that Dave or I don't have to let a client know that we just are not going to get into speculative, subjective discussions of tone beyond the absolutely obvious.... Han's example of the jangle of ladder being "different" than Larson X bracing is one of those obvious contrasts that I hear very well as well.

So how do we learn? We try things, control variables, learn about and engage the scientific method, keep in mind that we human bags of mostly water like to breath our own air... at times and hope for the best. Then we ask others to recreate what we have done and so on and so forth. Then maybe, just maybe we may be on to something but there is always the possibility that to someone your discoveries may be considered..... fake news......

I'm always, well nearly always happy to jump in and help with the quantifiable. This question IMO is not quantifiable.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Wanted to add that I really appreciated this post too, thanks Ken.

On two levels. First the crack arrester theory makes a lot of sense to me too and as someone who has my hands in a lot of cracks...... especially with Michigan's dry winters.... (and you thought I meant what....) I never see cracks traversing the finger braces.

Next who the hell are we anyway to even begin to think that we can come along and make a better mouse trap when the devices that we obsess over are highly steeped in tradition and what I would describe as a rather narrow minded market.... No offense intended to players but a Lot of Martins have been purchased because they are Martins and folks know that this means value and value retention. Folks who sell their own creations know that if you venture too far from martinology..... you may reduce your market size to that of a pink Mary Kay Cadillac.....

I'll add that within the world of martinology (I may have just coined this term ) there are a lot of places for individual builders to go that will pay off big. Pre-war Martins are one example, not caring about warranty claims and building light is another.

Anyway thanks Ken for this point of view.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Had to comment on this one too:

Greg buddy this is some of the cleanest work that I've seen in a very long time. Back in the day when I was building Lance and I had an informal competition for who could obsess more about the inside of the box. You may have just passed us both by!

Nice work my friend!

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Eh, no, I can't crawl out that far. Whatever is done in that respect is a matter of balance. It's about making the top and back move in the way that sounds like a winner to you. At that point, it's a matter of making one (1) small change at a time and evaluate.
Most of the difference in guitar's tone can be attributed to top material, basic bracing, thickness, taper, back material, thickness, bracing (personally, I have found laminated bracing and especially laminated BACK bracing a big tone changer), rib thickness (stiffness) and finish. Red spruce is quite different tone wise than German or Italian. Rosewood is quite different than Oak, Walnut or mahogany. They are all quite different, so you have palette to work with.
Those are your big tone changers in guitars.
Until you find a few combinations of top and back wood that generally please you tone wise, there really isn't much sense in talking about finger braces. Deciding on a bracing pattern, X, laminated X or ladder, that is what to concentrate on. After you have set a course, so to speak, you will be able to make your small change at a time using intuition. I would generally say that with luck, 3-5 guitars will show you a path.
Ken's "reverse engineering" known patterns and thicknesses is a very good way to get started. Unfortunately for me, that was not possible with Larsons as there was no information at the time and it was the long, hard trial and error type of education. There was nothing at the time to help. Of course that has all changed thanks to the interwebs.