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| The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=49649 |
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| Author: | Bri [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
If the nut fits snug in the slot, is any glue necessary? B |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
I only glue the ones I give to clients. Mainly to keep them from falling out when they change strings. It seems to me there is a lot of force keeping them in when the guitar is strung up. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Bri wrote: If the nut fits snug in the slot, is any glue necessary? B My nuts always fitted snuggly in the slot but I used a drop of glue anyway for insurance. I also agree with john that customers don't like having their nuts fall off...... To the uninitiated one would tend to want to go to the ER.... |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
david farmer wrote: You'd think every once in a while you'd get a little cocaine or a message for help getting out of a sweatshop or something. But every time I crack one of these fortune cookies off a neck...........nothing.  Attachment: 20170924_150939.jpg That's hysterical!!!! I found a fungus coated green toe nail under a saddle once..... Yum, yum..... 
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| Author: | Colin North [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Bri wrote: If the nut fits snug in the slot, is any glue necessary? B In my case, there is no slot. Nut just butts up against FB and sits on top of unlacquered bit of headstock. Recent trade secrets video I saw Dan used a little shellac. |
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| Author: | Bri [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
So, basically, if you wish to avoid awkward servicing,glue your nut to the shaft? |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Alex Kleon wrote: Have to wonder why they don't use a couple of finish nails to hold them in place while the epoxy sets. Alex Hesh wrote: I found a fungus coated green toe nail under a saddle once..... Yum, yum..... Alex, they may have run out of nails because they used them all up on their Reso. Hesh, here are some more under saddle "tone-nails" and a biscuit to go with them. In a high vibration application like this, of course, ring-shanks would be prudent. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up") Attachment: WIN_20151006_170345.JPG Attachment: WIN_20151006_170400.JPG
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Bri wrote: So, basically, if you wish to avoid awkward servicing,glue your nut to the shaft? I deal with clients frequently who are beside themselves because their nuts fell off. It's upsetting and since they don't know what to expect and didn't expect to have their nuts fall off they can feel a real sense of panic. Seagull guitars which are great values and really nice guitars for the money IME are well known for losing their nuts since there is no back stop or head plate for the nut installation/retention. Even if your nuts friction fit well wood moves, shrinks, expands, etc. and stuff changes over time making that single drop of glue on the end of the fret board a pretty good idea. So just like when Sean Connery asked for just "one single ping" in Hunt for Red October just one single drop of CA on the end of the fret board is a pretty good idea. Just one drop, no more, no less. I avoid accelerator if it's a bone nut in so much as it can discolor the slots for a few days before it goes away. No one likes to have blueish, discolored nuts. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
If there is a slot, make it tapered so it is slightly smaller on the floor side. Taper the nut, too. Then it stays in place, unless someone changes strings with the guitar upside down. My Kohno is built this way, and it is not uncommon among high end classical builders. |
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| Author: | Bri [ Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
wbergman wrote: If there is a slot, make it tapered so it is slightly smaller on the floor side. Taper the nut, too. Then it stays in place, unless someone changes strings with the guitar upside down. My Kohno is built this way, and it is not uncommon among high end classical builders. Well that got me thinking..... why not taper it so it needs to slide in from the side, dovetail like? Probably a bit of unecessary overkill, I need to quit overthinking. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
I'm surprised that the people who feel that the neck contributes a lot to the sound of the guitar haven't recommended a well glued in nut. I do a couple of drops of superglue, so a light rap with a mallet will break it loose. "Well that got me thinking..... why not taper it so it needs to slide in from the side, dovetail like?" That might spell disaster for the inattentive repairman! 
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| Author: | Colin North [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Clay S. wrote: I'm surprised that the people who feel that the neck contributes a lot to the sound of the guitar haven't recommended a well glued in nut. I do a couple of drops of superglue, so a light rap with a mallet will break it loose. "Well that got me thinking..... why not taper it so it needs to slide in from the side, dovetail like?" That might spell disaster for the inattentive repairman! I do feel that the neck contributes a lot to the sound of the guitar and a well fitted nut is an essential part of that. Having said that, most of the nut's contribution seems to come from the base of the nut having good contact with the nut shelf, i.e. flat base on a flat nut shelf, similar to a saddle. A spot of glue. TB, hide, CA, whatever against the FB end does not interfere in this. Gluing it to the shelf will not contribute much if anything, and in my case it seems the nut was possibly held off the nut shelf by the glue "pad" with the ends hanging in the air a bit. And yes to your comment about inattention on the part of the hypothetical but very busy repairman. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
I guess the obvious no-no is telling your wife that you just bought (insert your choice of: wood, tools, machinery, etc) when she has been bugging you to do the (insert your choice of: bathroom, kitchen, family room reno, painting, flooring, etc). I'm shopping for a drum sander, but our powder room renovation will be done first, and my wife is grinding me way harder than any of my customers do! Alex |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Alex Kleon wrote: I guess the obvious no-no is telling your wife that you just bought (insert your choice of: wood, tools, machinery, etc) when she has been bugging you to do the (insert your choice of: bathroom, kitchen, family room reno, painting, flooring, etc). I think your lookig for "the great big honey-do thread" Alex. I'm shopping for a drum sander, but our powder room renovation will be done first, and my wife is grinding me way harder than any of my customers do! Alex Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
I've worked on dovetailed in nuts before and they can be removed but there is far more risk of finish damage since they have to be driven out the side and some manufacturers finish the nuts in place. Martin does this and some others too. I'm not going to get into subjective tonal matters for the obvious reason but a drop of CA on the end of the fret board holding a bone nut firmly in contact with the bottom of the nut channel is not going to be something that anyone who is not insane can discern any tonal differences. The nut bottom is flattened on a surface plate (standard fare) and the nut channel was flattened with a flat file. The nut is being pressed downward into the channel by string pressure. Pretty good contact if you ask me. I don't think that even with a very minimal amount of glue in there and blind listening tests anyone would ever be able to say who's glued and who's not. The primary reason for avoiding any glueless implementation of a nut installation is serviceability AND ease of use for the clients. Nuts need to be removed (until the rest of the Lutherie world gets tooled up for composite dental fillings...) and players have heart attacks when their nuts fall off in a dark room and Killer the Yorkie grabs the sucker and runs out of the room..... There was an episode of the Sopranos where Tony dreamed, oh never mind this is a G rated forum..... But you just can't have nuts falling out.... |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
"I'm shopping for a drum sander, but our powder room renovation will be done first, and my wife is grinding me way harder than any of my customers do!" Alex, you're looking at the situation as a problem, and not as an opportunity. You just need to find a reason you need a drum sander to renovate the powder room. 
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Clay S. wrote: "I'm shopping for a drum sander, but our powder room renovation will be done first, and my wife is grinding me way harder than any of my customers do!" Alex, you're looking at the situation as a problem, and not as an opportunity. You just need to find a reason you need a drum sander to renovate the powder room. And that, my friends, is the way it's done. |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Haha... I'm pretty sure you have to scuff sand drywall sheets to give them some tooth so the mud will stick. Who wants to sand all that by hand? |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
bcombs510 wrote: Haha... I'm pretty sure you have to scuff sand drywall sheets to give them some tooth so the mud will stick. Who wants to sand all that by hand? Drywall for a powder room? No way! Italian Spruce wainscoting. is what she needs. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
david farmer wrote: bcombs510 wrote: Haha... I'm pretty sure you have to scuff sand drywall sheets to give them some tooth so the mud will stick. Who wants to sand all that by hand? Drywall for a powder room? No way! Italian Spruce wainscoting. is what she needs. Book matched! Alex |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
OK, if this is going to be the "great big" don't do thread, we have to get back on track. I'll try to offer matching funds from my photo stash as incentive for others. There must be more out there. Just weed em' out for too much sensitive information. In celebration of the current bridge caul thread, I offer this sequence for gluing a bridge on a $300 Guitalele. Straight from the factory: 1. apply glue. 2. drive the screws through the bridge into the bridge plate. 3. put a clamp on the center brace and crank the holy living cr@p out of it! until you feel the pad bottom out, firmly, on the underside of the bridge. Attachment: WIN_20150401_105005 - Copy.JPG
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Here's something that we see pretty commonly, damage from a saddle that is either too tall, doesn't fit well and wants to tip forward, and/or too much rotation on the bridge with string tension. This one was all of the above. This guitar belongs to a Priest and is used for worship services. It had mediums on it and the distance from the strings to the top was over 5/8th". The saddle, bone was a loose fit and someone had stuck some EIRW veneer in the front of the saddle slot to take up some of the extra slop. In addition the bridge pins, you know those cheap, genuine imitation pl*stic, slotted, mass produced pins had already damaged the bridge plate and the string balls were pulling up through the top. The fix for us was to install a maple bridge plate cap on the existing maple bridge plate and route and true up the saddle slot with our Collin's Saddle mill so that a proper saddle with consistent dimensions AND now with individual string compensation would fit well with no tipping. In the words of the great Mick Jagger, so I did...... Anyway the moron of the story is tall saddles lead to repair bills and having to put up with people like me to get your ax fixed...
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
Oh yeah, see the pins pulling upward especially the low e? That's a tell tale of bridge plate damage from cheap, genuine imitation pl*stic, mass produced slotted pins. The string balls begin to migrate into the top and sometimes.... beyond and we can see this as the pins no longer seat. |
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| Author: | david farmer [ Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
It can be hard to convince hard core brand believers that the fluted pins put in by their beloved company are a bad Idea. When your sliding a spatula under the fingerboard extension during a neck re-set, and you encounter resistance, maybe check inside and see if you're up against the transverse brace! Some may disagree, but I feel a glue that releases with heat here is good thing. Attachment: WIN_20170309_16_57_49_Pro.jpg
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Great Big Don't Do Thread..... |
If rigid sides and a stiff neck are good for tone why not take it all the way. Oh yeah, beef up the upper bout, no resets here.  
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