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 Post subject: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:41 am 
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Koa
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I have a bar of medium grade Menzera (GW16, I think it was) for use on a buffing wheel. It's served me well over the years and there's plenty of the bar left. However, it seems to have gone dry and hard and will no longer coat the buff. Are there any tricks to rejuvenating this stuff or just chuck it?

(I have a bar of fine compound bought at the same time, stored in the same conditions, used in the same way etc. etc. which still works fine).

Thanks in anticipation.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:06 am 
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I/ve tried heating cheap tape for 10 sec in the microwave trev , (works)would a vy short burst of heat soften the compound. ?? Perhaps someone who/s tried or a chemist might chime in.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:42 am 
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Koa
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Trevor Gore wrote:
I have a bar of medium grade Menzera (GW16, I think it was) for use on a buffing wheel. It's served me well over the years and there's plenty of the bar left. However, it seems to have gone dry and hard and will no longer coat the buff. Are there any tricks to rejuvenating this stuff or just chuck it?

Bloody good question!
I still struggle at the buffing wheel to get the result I want. I've been thinking seriously of chucking my Menzerna and buffs, and replacing with something else -- but what?


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:25 am 
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Can't help you with your question but I'm curious how old it it?

It would appear to take an awful lot of guitars to use up a stick.

Has anyone here actually got down to a little nubby end? :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:30 pm 
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I have some compound I've had for over 10 years and it is still ok. Interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:33 pm 
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DannyV wrote:
Can't help you with your question but I'm curious how old it it?

It would appear to take an awful lot of guitars to use up a stick.

Has anyone here actually got down to a little nubby end? :shock:


Many, many times........

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:16 pm 
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ernie wrote:
I/ve tried heating cheap tape for 10 sec in the microwave trev , (works)would a vy short burst of heat soften the compound..

Tried that. No, unfortunately. I assumed the matrix was some sort of wax/tallow compound, but 20s in the microwave did nothing with respect to raising its temperature. I sawed the end off; it feels a touch waxier, but still won't coat the buff. It was fairly cold for here (18C). I'm more often working at ~25+C, which might make a difference
DannyV wrote:
Can't help you with your question but I'm curious how old it it?

8 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:16 pm 
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I had troubles once with the buff not taking the menzerna. Finally figured out that it was due to the belt slipping.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Oh thank Goodness!!! I thought another luthier and/or musician had died.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:18 am 
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I'd try a question to the source. https://www.menzerna.com/contact/contact-form/ I'm sure this isn't an isolated problem.

Alex

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:44 am 
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I have some Menzerna sticks that are seven years old with no probs, but if that happened to me, I'd try rehumidifying it, putting it in a plastic bag with a slightly damp sponge. Might take a while; if it took years to dry out, could be that long to rehumidify.

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These users thanked the author Pat Foster for the post: sjfoss (Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:27 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:16 am 
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Only clues from MSDS is that it contains hydrocarbons but is "soluble in water"-?
http://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/msds_menzernaPO91E.pdf
I suppose you could try steaming a small lump for a bit?
Or contacting their experts as suggested.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:24 am 
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Saint Erlewine suggests "pre-heating" your wheel by running it on a block of raw wood for a minute or so, allowing the buff to take the compound easier. I did find that it helps.


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These users thanked the author Ken Jones for the post: Alex Kleon (Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:16 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:05 am 
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I have compounds that are years old as well. I find that a freshly raked buff takes compound very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:47 pm 
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The problem appears to have been that the compound was too cold. I left it in the sun and warmed it to ~30C and everything started to work again.

A thing to think about here: Does your buffer have enough power? Recommended is 1/3 HP, which is what I have (because that happened to be the rating on the washing machine motor I had). That's just OK for buffing once you get the compound on, but is not enough to put enough heat onto the buff to soften the compound without stalling the buff. (This is the Stewmac rig with 14" double buffs each side). Twice that installed HP would probably not be overpowering, but would help get some heat into the system on a cold (18C ;) ) day.

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These users thanked the author Trevor Gore for the post: Tim Mullin (Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:23 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:39 am 
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I too have been using old Menzerna compounds 8-10 years old. It occurred to me that they didn't seem to be working as well as I thought they should based on the results other were getting with similar grade compounds. I ordered a bar of medium compound from SM a few weeks back since I had an order going in anyway. The new stuff works twice as good, cut my buffing time in half with better results. Wish I had thought to try something different sooner...

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These users thanked the author Josh H for the post: Ken Jones (Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:52 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:14 am 
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I need to have my eyes checked. I thought the title of this tread said, Dead McKenna.

I'm nought dead yet!


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Josh H wrote:
Wish I had thought to try something different sooner...

Interesting, Josh. Thanks for posting.

I take it that the new stuff you got was the SM (ColorTone) branded stuff?

Trevor Gore wrote:
A thing to think about here: Does your buffer have enough power? Recommended is 1/3 HP...


That rating was correct because I checked it. However, whilst checking out the ColorTone compound I noticed that the motor SM sell for their buffer is rated 3/4 HP. Go figure!

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http://www.goreguitars.com.au


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:01 am 
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Trevor Gore wrote:
Josh H wrote:
Wish I had thought to try something different sooner...

Interesting, Josh. Thanks for posting.

I take it that the new stuff you got was the SM (ColorTone) branded stuff?


Yes it is ColorTone. I had to put in an SM order and thought I'd give it a try. I may pick up a new bar of Menzerna to see how it compares. Since they are relatively cheap I figure I should do some expirumenting. I had been reading other people's posts and on different sites that I should easily be able to go from 1200 grit to a medium compound. However the old bar of Menzerna Med didn't seem to be working as well as it used to. I was having to sand finer and buff multiple times to get good results. With the new stuff I'm having no trouble going from 1200 to the med compound.

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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Thanks, Josh.

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http://www.goreguitars.com.au


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 Post subject: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Trevor Gore wrote:
The problem appears to have been that the compound was too cold. I left it in the sun and warmed it to ~30C and everything started to work again.

Thanks for that remark, Trevor. My Menzerna compound seemed to work poorly since moving back to Canada, and to a shop that generally runs <20°C. I started to leave one of my LED task lights over the bars at night -- just enough heat that they work 500% better! Just buffed out a crack/finish repair on a Martin this morning and the stuff worked as it should.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Tim Mullin wrote:
Trevor Gore wrote:
The problem appears to have been that the compound was too cold. I left it in the sun and warmed it to ~30C and everything started to work again.

Thanks for that remark, Trevor. My Menzerna compound seemed to work poorly since moving back to Canada, and to a shop that generally runs <20°C.


Nope, I've given up on my current bars. The 16 responded to heating up, the ATOL 6 not so much. Even tried putting them in our sous-vide water bath at 35°C for a few hours. I worked out that I've had these for 8 or 9 years. During that time, they've buffed guitars on 3 continents and spent about 9 months at sea in shipping containers, crossing the equator twice. With age, it seems the wax substrate has dried out, become very hard and no longer transfers easily to buff. I had problems last year, and this summer has been a nightmare.

So, I bit the bullet and ordered replacements from Jescar and, while I was spending money, ordered some new, softer buffs. I really hope this puts this issue behind me. I'll let you know, Trevor -- maybe yours are headed the same way.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Tim Mullin wrote:
With age, it seems the wax substrate has dried out, become very hard and no longer transfers easily to buff....Trevor -- maybe yours are headed the same way.

I think you're probably right, Tim. Sounds exactly like how mine doesn't work. I'll maybe get one more season out of it, as we're coming into summer here.

It'll be interesting to hear how the Jescar compares to the ColorTone (and the Menzerna).

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http://www.goreguitars.com.au


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 Post subject: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Trevor Gore wrote:
It'll be interesting to hear how the Jescar compares to the ColorTone (and the Menzerna).

Jescar is in fact distributing the Menzerna line. I couldn't find anyone in Canada handling the bars and Jescar seemed to the best price offshore. The numbering seems to have changed. I ordered the 204, 16 and P175, hoping to use them in that order after wet sanding with P800. We'll see. I have no experience with the ColorTone from Stewmac.


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 Post subject: Re: Dead Menzerna??
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:12 am 
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I also have an Atol6 that would not transfer to the buffing wheel. I had purchased it earlier this year from Jescar and got it out to use in place of the (white) P175 that I did not like at all.

The word from Jescar was that they had complaints about the yellow P175. The complaints were from the yellow color getting all over. Well, I did not like the white P175, it seemed dryer and would not bring the surface to the clean, wet looking shine that I was getting with the yellow so I ordeed a yellow P175 and buffed a guitar a few days ago, sweet success once again.
I mentioned to Jescar that the Atol6 bar that I had previously ordered was hard can would not transfer to the buffing wheel, crickets.............

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