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I use peghead adjustable rods on my archtops and run carbon bars across the headstock so I don't worry too much. With the Blanchard rod the channel is smaller that designs with a big nut.

I still use a soundhole rod on flattops but still run the bars across the headstock joint.

I really like the convenience of a headstock adjustable rod but I use a Martin style headstock and to me a truss rod cover just looks out of place as opposed to a Gibson/Guild/Archtop style.

I wonder if a truss rod cover on a Martin type headstock would have any impact on sales just on looks alone?

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I note a couple of references to CF “across” the headstock to reinforce the neck/headstock transition. I’m not sure I know what you all mean by that. Any pics?


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Couldn’t resist.

But really,



IMHO, this is purely a matter of personal choice and styling. You can find exceptional examples of each configuration from the best builders in the world. I doubt very much that anyone here would convince Micheal Greenfield he’s doing it all wrong. [WINKING FACE]

And if you are interested in trying a peg head access version but concerned routing a channel through the nut area will unduly weaken the peghead, do yourself a favor and route two more for carbon fiber through rods. I’ve not done any imperial or destructive testing, but common sense and generally applicable experience leads me to believe any slight loss in structural integrity attributable to the truss rod channel will be more than mitigated by the added rigidity of the CF bars.



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Aaron Craig

I'm not sure I understand why it would work better from the nut end? It seems to me that it's all relative as long as the rod is placed along the full length of the fretboard it should not matter which end the access point is unless I'm just missing something.

When I do them at the head stock I use a very small hole that requires the long end of the allen key. Gibson makes that fluted wide entry I think for access of the short end of the allen key. That seems to weaken the headstock a lot more. Otherwise a small round hole probably has no affect on the strength just like the small round hole that goes through the UTB for access through the sound hole.

I was taught to end the carbon bars at the nut back when I took the Fox course in 2004 but I only did it on a few guitars. To me you are creating a stress riser right at the wrong point. When I started running them across into the headstock as pictured I was surprised to see the necks get stiffer. I had to make sure I leveled with the truss rod snug to get enough relief later, especially on 12F necks.

On slotheads you can run them across but need to cut off the point a bit and plug the channel with a piece of the neck wood or you will expose the tip of the bar when ramping the slot. Some of my guitars have a little dark spot on the edge of the ramp.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I too am curious how nut adjusting TR works better. I'm not saying it doesn't; I'd just like to know what is going on that makes this so. I suppose it depends on the TR type too. Perhaps a single action compression type rod would be effected differently than a dual action rod?

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

This is true and when I do try a peghead access rod I'll follow Greenfield, Bills and others in using CF reinforcement as well, a step I'd bet the house that the factories aren't taking so I don't worry about that too much.

The main appeal for me though is to be able to set up with strings on at full tension without having to fart around inside the sound hole. As it is I have to make my sound holes slightly larger anyway just to fit my big fat meat hooks in there.

If you are using an Allen head adjuster with a hole in the UTB (in other words a straightish shot to the adjuster), you could fit an Allen wrench shaft into a small socket/ratchet and fit it between the D and G strings. They would have to spread apart when you put the wrench in and as you make your clicks but maybe it would allow you to keep the strings tension-ed.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Just curious, has anyone seen a scarfed headstock break?

I agree that an allen key adjustment in the peg head would be much smaller than the Gibson style. However, I don't think you can compare it to a small soundhole brace access because that one is solid on all sides where you don't lose much strength. There's probably a structural term for that as compared to the headstock access that is open on one side of the cavity.

I've done the carbon fiber a couple times and agree that it is much stiffer. Adding a back strap also seems like it would add much strength to the area. Especially if the volute breaks the plane of the nut Zone.

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Pat

That's what I was trying to say. I cannot find a pic but what I mean to say is I end the routed out TR channel slot right before the nut then drill a hole through the head plate veneer on target to the slot where the allen nut is. The hole is just big enough for the allen key and in fact helps guide it right to the nut. IF You look inside you can still see the nut, it's not really burried in there like a sound hole one. But still, basically it's just a small hole drilled through the peghead.

I tend to do sound hole access now and here's a pic of the UTB hole on a guitar I am building today. Just picture a hole like that but in the head stock. In this case it's a small UTB hole that guides the allen key down a hole drilled into the head block on target to the allen nut. In both cases the whole structure is surrounded by wood. And yes I do believe there is some engineering principle going on here too but IDK the name of it either. Basically drilling holes within reason doesn't weaken the structure.

So basically it would be this but in reverse if that makes sense?

If it takes more than 7-8 seconds to make a truss rod tweak (including reaching for the truss rod wrench, making the tweak, and rechecking), I question the design choices made by the builder.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

point/counter point. If the truss rod needs to be tweaked so often that being able to make adjustments in 7-8 seconds becomes an issue, then I question the guitar. I've owned upwards of 70 guitars and have never needed to adjust a truss rod on any of them more than one time.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Some builders make it nearly impossible to gain access to the truss rod becasue they don't want you messin with it. I like easy access myself but have no problem removing a truss rod cover either. Apples and oranges, they are both fruit.

Geez Woodie, I think you're over-analyzing David's comments. I also don't think that the undue lesson in paragraph composition was the least bit necessary nor was it very civil. I read his post and knew exactly what he meant. David's contributions to this and many other forums, as well as his place in the luthery community qualify him as deserving a bit more respect than that.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

What, exactly, was uncivil in my response, Mr. Williams? Surely, responding to an obvious incivility in a rationale, lucid fashion does not pierce that barrier which allows surrender of the trappings of civility? Further, I am not aware of any life circumstance, whether it be length of service, magnitude of contributions, advancing age, or indeed, even the frequent use of the Oxford comma which exempts either Mr. Berkowitz or myself from a common duty to civil discourse.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

String gauge changes, tuning changes, and even storage conditions can all generate a need to tweak relief. Some owners will see little need for adjustment, while others - seemingly addicted to experimentation - will end up making more frequent adjustments.

My own experience - however brief - is that owners that choose to tackle adjustments don't seem to let lack of obvious access or tools stand in their way, and that YouTube and the various enthusiast web sites have made it more likely that those previously reluctant to tweak their setups now feel empowered to do so. We just repaired sound hole finish damage to a Santa Cruz OM - certainly not the most access-friendly of instruments - due to an overenthusiastic and under-equipped attempt at relief adjustment. We've seen neck bolts loosened by owners in their attempts to adjust relief as well, so I am not certain that disguising the truss rod not does much to discourage the ham-handed.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

And folks wonder why professionals avoid this forum like the plague. Over and out.....

Preeee-cisely!

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It will probably be alright.

Is that true? If so, it's very unfortunate. I haven't been around for that long so there might be a backstory I'm not aware of.

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As the OP I got Dave's point and Woodie's humor. I don't point fingers but these things often get lost in translation here and it's unfortunate. Several valued posters have come and gone for the same reasons. At the end of the day we are aiming to share information and sometimes points of view conflict. It's a shame that it often comes to this. Having met David, I can tell you he's a good guy and a very busy guy as well. The fact that he still drops in to weigh in on topics asked in a public forum is a testament to that, despite the fact that he's not building right now. I'd cut him a little slack.

On that note I'd prefer to continue the conversation at hand and I appreciate all input and experience on this topic, conflicting or not. Please keep it civil folks, those that have been here for more than a few years know what I'm referring to. Healthy debate should always productive but that's not always the case, let's try to keep it civil regardless of disagreements. After all that is the point of having a discussion/debate in the first place isn't it? Give your input, analyze and hopefully learn from said discussion. In my case I usually just ask questions and hope for a response, which usually I am quite fortunate to get. I have no mentor/teacher just a bunch of books and this forum. A loss to this community is a loss to our trade especially for other folks like me. This forum is supposed to be about information sharing, let's try to keep it at that.

Interesting to note. I did actually notice that the same allen key I use for the truss rod I use for the neck bolts. In computer programming they call this type of thing error handling. In other words try as best as you can to design a system where it's difficult for people to make mistakes and when they do provide a method of handling it.

I never thought about that but it makes sense in this regard. My method is to make the truss rod access very easy and obvious but still people do incredibly dumb things so it would be even better to use two different sized allen keys.

This forum is supposed to be about information sharing, let's try to keep it at that.[/quote]
+1 +1 +1!

"And folks wonder why professionals avoid this forum like the plague."

It makes us appreciate the professionals like Alan Carruth who has stayed on the forums and patiently schooled those of us less knowledgeable, even when challenged by the ignorant. To participate on a forum you have to have a pretty thick skin and take others comments in the best possible light rather than seeing the negative
Humor is a difficult thing to convey in print. There have been times I've intended a comment to be humorous, but the other party has taken it as a personal attack. For that I apologize, sometimes we assume a familiarity we don't always share.

I used to believe that it was just the inability of some readers to - absent a number of smilies attached to a post - suss out that a suggestion, statement, etc. was in fact intended in jest due to the absence of the usual cues (e.g., coworkers laughing; smiles and snorts from others in the conversation) in online communication. The humorist Mr. Scott Adams (author of the Dilbert cartoon strip, etc.) cleared that up with a recent, well written piece that suggested that the core issue is more general in nature: that about a third of people lack any ability to appreciate any form of humor, and another third appreciate only certain forms of humor - for instance, satire or parody, versus physical or situational humor.

Adams feels that this lack of an ability to detect and appreciate humor is no different than any other ability distributed haphazardly throughout the population, such as the ability to appreciate a fine wine or to win a penalty kick against a decent soccer goalie. While in the past, those with some degree of humor deficit could reliably count on other participants in the discussion providing some clue at to the nature of an utterance, online discussions lack those contextual cues and must rely on work-arounds such as smilies or other parenthetical inclusions that signal intent to commit humor. Even than, the humorless or humor-impaired are still working at a disadvantage in determining the nature of the jest, and an appropriate response.

To summarize for those skipping ahead, Adams suggests that it's not so much that the online medium is problematic for the unserious, but rather that a good portion of the population lacks an ability - through no fault of their own - to appreciate some or all humor.

In light of this, I have resolved to redouble my efforts to assist those in need. Not only will I allocate additional smilies within my own posts (thus, providing a virtual version of a studio broadcast "LAUGH" sign), but I will also try to post something along the lines of a laugh track for others when appropriate. For those feeling challenged by the hazards of internet humor, my post - usually something like "Good one, Bob! LOL!" - is your sign that it's OK to safely contribute a gaffaw or chuckle to the conversation without fear of group censure.

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We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)