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Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50527		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I've watched the videos from Robbie O'Brien and on the shellacfinishes site itself and they make it look so easy. I'm trying the EXACT same thing and my pad keeps sticking to the surface. You might think that I am not putting enough finish on the pad, so I put more then it leaves streaks. I've even heard people say they treat it just like French Polish and use oil and so on. Tried that too and it was miserable. I can't imagine how anyone could say it behaves like FP because for me it's nothing at all like it. I'm thinking of just brushing it on, wet sanding and then polishing it out,.

I simply cannot get this stuff to behave with the traditional padding method.

Is it recommended to cut the stuff with some alcohol maybe?

I think I will like this stuff quite a bit but dayum. [headinwall]
Author:  TRein [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Your experiences match mine to a tee. RL French polishing was way different from shellac and the lubricating oil just disappeared into the finish. Spriting off? Fuhgeddaboudit. Tried brushing it on. Ridges everywhere. Bought a special, cow hair varnishing brush and added a bit of Spike Lavender Oil in various percentages to retard drying and possibly flow out better. Nope. The only finishing application I found it useful for was classical guitar bridges.
I wasn't happy with the objectionable solvent smell either. It is not a benign solvent, at least the one that was being used a couple of years ago when I tried RL.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I have used it on a few instruments with success. I was not able to french polish with it. I have heard some dilute it 1 to 1 with alcohol when they FP. I have had success using it as a padding finish. In that case I would wipe it on, a single direction with a cotton rag charged about the same as when I french polish. About 30 minutes latter I would wipe on another coat. If the rag starts pulling when trying a coat I would wait till the next day to start again. I used no oil. I find the product acts more like Behlen qualasol and use it that way. A lot of people say French polish when they really mean padding, that is apply the finish with a rag without the burnishing done while french polishing.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I've never used royal-lac but intend to on the next guitars I finish. It looks like it comes in a cut way too heavy to french polish. Are you diluting it down? I never measure when I mix shellac since I charge the pad with shellac and alcohol by what feels right at the time. That said, when I see Royal-Lac in videos, the stuff in the jar seems much heavier than the shellac I am putting on my pad (and then mixing in more alcohol on the pad).

I've seen a few videos on yourtube of people FPing with it and they are getting the nice vapor trail and everything. Have you tried more alcohol and or a dryer pad?

I guess this means that I am going to have be up against a new learning opportunity when I get some. I hope I get the hang of it.
Author:  TRein [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Bryan, Like you I don't measure "pound cut" etc. I can tell by the way the pad is acting whether it is time to add more alcohol, finish, or oil. So, yes, RL is rather thick as supplied but not really a factor.
Vapor trail, or "clouds", are present with oil and RL during French polishing. But, the oil becomes incorporated into the film in an alarming way. RL applied traditional French polish way with oil will gum sandpaper terribly even after aggressive spiriting off. Applied straight with pad or brush the finish powders admirably during light level-sanding. My hat is off to anyone who can successfully pad this finish on without oil. That is probably the best method.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Interesting. Sounds like I have some thinking and experimenting to do. I am inferring that you found that you needed to use more oil than usual.?.
Author:  johnparchem [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Bryan Bear wrote:
Interesting. ... I am inferring that you found that you needed to use more oil than usual.?.


TRein wrote:
... RL applied traditional French polish way with oil will gum sandpaper terribly even after aggressive spiriting off. Applied straight with pad or brush the finish powders admirably during light level-sanding. ...


I think no oil, lets the coats dry to the touch between coats.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
The RL is about the same consistency that I make my shellac for FP. I have tried adding alcohol to the pad as well, just like I would do with FP. When you FP you are constantly going over and over the coats you just laid down, there is no going over the coats of RL so forget about swirling or figure 8's. I guess the technique is straight line like glazing but even so it still sticks to the straight line right next to it.

I think I might wet sand the lines out tonight then glaze with a dilute mix.

For those who use oil what oil do you use and do you apply it to the pad or to the guitar? In FP I always dropped a few drops on the guitar itself and then swirlled it in.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I have an unopened container of the post-cat and unopened seal-lac if any of you guys want it I'll make you a deal or trade for something. :)
Author:  sjfoss [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I've used RL for several guitars. Yes, at a 2lb cut, it's too thick to FP. I dilute to 1lb or even 3/4 lb cut and it is much easier. I've also played with changing the pressure and speed with which I FP; slightly faster and lighter seems to work better.

I only use 1 drop of olive oil per surface per 'session'. I've not had a problem removing any oil via spiriting off.

Early on, I would wet-sand between sessions, but discovered a year later that the surface would craze. Vijay told me that it was the water that remained between coats that didn't let the shellac cure properly. Something about the polyester additive that 'gets in the way' of this process. So I don't use a sanding lubricant, sandpaper is relatively cheap. Vijay said that it would be ok to wet-sand after the 30 day suggested cure time. I've not needed to do that.

I've not attempted to spray it, but some folks seem to like the post-cat version of the product for spraying.

Once applied, it holds up reasonably well, it seems to be tougher than regular shellac, looks great, non-toxic, easy to apply. But, its not nitro.

Steve
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
This may not be "kosher", but I use it on every guitar. My method is to start with SealLac mixed 50/50 with Acetone. Goes on fast and wet. Dries in seconds. Can go back over several times in a few minutes. Builds very fast. After a few coats, I usually wait an hour or so and sand back lightly with 400 grit. Then I do several more coats. They are wet, but very thin. After that I add coats of RoyalLac with Acetone. This is all done by feel, but several coats and very lightly sand a little. Then I French polish with a 1 lb cut with grain, and add equal amount of alcohol on the muneca along with a minute drop of olive oil. I have also just continued to build with the 1 lb cut wiping on wet and thin, then sanding back between every few coats. Finally after a few more, wait over night and wet sand thorough the Micro Mesh grits starting at about 2400. Usually comes out pretty well. Takes a couple of days. Sometimes 3.

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Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
That looks great Waddy I'd love to have a finish like that.
Author:  rlrhett [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I French polish with RL and have never experienced anything but joy using it. I know that would be frustrating to hear, and I’m not saying it to rub in (no pun intended). But I offer it as a counterpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Author:  jfmckenna [ Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
rlrhett wrote:
I French polish with RL and have never experienced anything but joy using it. I know that would be frustrating to hear, and I’m not saying it to rub in (no pun intended). But I offer it as a counterpoint.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Right out of the can?
Author:  doncaparker [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I have French Polished with Royal Lac. I tried brushing it on, but I could not get it to look right. As soon as I switched to FP methods, everything started working right.

A few thoughts:

1. Are you starting with Seal Lac? I think it is really important to do all the heavy lifting with either Seal Lac or your own regular shellac mixture, then only use the Royal Lac for the later coats. Seal Lac does not have the proprietary "stuff" in it that makes this finish more durable than regular shellac; that stuff is in Royal Lac only. All pore filling and sealing should be done before you put on the Royal Lac.

2. I found Royal Lac (and Seal Lac, for that matter) to be pretty thick out of the jar. Thinning it with alcohol is a good idea. I was able to use it right out of the jar, but I added a lot of alcohol on the pad as I went, and I used a lubricating oil.

3. I just used pure olive oil as the lubricating oil, because for this particular finish, I wanted to be able to get it all off, leaving just the Royal Lac. In other words, I would not recommend incorporating a drying oil into this finish like you might with regular shellac. I just don't know how the Royal Lac will interact with the drying oil over the long haul.

Really, other than feeling a little gummy during application, and having a less pleasant solvent smell than my normal Everclear, I didn't have any trouble using a FP method to put on Royal Lac. I adjusted to the gumminess, and all was fine.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Yes I used the Seal Lac first and brushed it on. I was very pleased with how easy it was to brush on. I tried thinning it last night and I still get nothing like the response I get when I FP. So I guess I'll try some oil now. I do worry about using oil because my understanding is that this stuff cross links and dries hard and I don't want oil to be trapped. From what I understand too it's resistant to alcohol so when you go to the next session you are not burning in the previous one right? So in that way it's almost more like a varnish that coats in layers.

I just don't know why I cannot do it like O'Brien or the Sheelacfinsih guy can. They use it right out of the can in straight strokes and it looks perfect. They also seem to put a ton of the stuff on the pad, when I do that - streaks...

This is the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVjg_eyu1tA
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Similar to Don, I start with Seal Lac just padding with the grain, that gets things started pretty well. I lightly level it with P320 just to get it flat, if I sand through I pad on some more Seal Lac and then level until it's good. Next I start with the RL; I wet my pad with alcohol (Everclear), then add probably 4 or 5 drops of RL (they're all in squeeze bottles) and I'll add a touch of walnut oil (less than a drop) every once in a while to keep things moving easily. I put it on very thin, at first going with the grain (check out David Wren's video on the RL site), and can do 4 or 5 sessions in a day. I do a light level with P400 before I start the next day . After several days when it looks good to me I reduce the amount of RL on the pad and do a traditional French polish movement working the pad in small circles. No more level sanding after this. I do multiple sessions of this over a day or two then let it sit a week and buff. And no it's not nitro but that doesn't matter to me. RL works best when it goes on with many, very thin coats, IMO. It also requires longer to cure than regular shellac so take a little bit more time. If you have questions just contact Vijay - he has helped me a lot.

I've tried spraying and brushing but didn't get the results I wanted and both resulted in a finish that was too thick and was a lot more work. If you do this then go for thin coats and give extra time for the finish to dry.

I thought I had read that RL would burn in for several days but would not after it had cured (full cure is at 30 days). I have not noticed any witness lines as long as I put the next coats on within a day or two.

Also, r.e. fillers and drop fills, Vijay did tell me not to drop fill with CA but to use Seal Lac. Also, he said if you use an epoxy filler then you need a barrier coat of Seal Lac between the epoxy and the RL.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Steve do you wet or dry sand?
Author:  SteveSmith [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
jfmckenna wrote:
Steve do you wet or dry sand?


Dry - Per Vijay "No wet sanding in between coats. Wet sanding is allowed only after cure time of 30 days."

I've also found that the more I practice this the less I need to level sand - which sure doesn't break my heart ;)
Author:  meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I need to learn how to do this, but y'all are not making me look forward to it...
Author:  ernie [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Very nice finish on the CL guitar, and a very clever way to get about the shortcomings of RL . .Have never used it . I am trying out 1/3 dewaxed shellac 1/3 alcohol a dose of acetone, some brush additive from homestead for shellac and I tool an idea from eugene clark and mixed in a couple of ounces of walnut oil. Allegedly the shellac / walnut oil creates a harder varnish , will wait and see.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Can anyone explain the chemistry behind using acetone?

meddlingfool wrote:
I need to learn how to do this, but y'all are not making me look forward to it...


This is my first attempt. It's on a guitar built from a retopped guitar so it's purely experimental and not for sale so it's a good opportunity for me to learn. I can strip it and do it again if I have too.

I'll keep you all updated ;)
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
jf, I have not used acetone or RL in my french polishing, but I believe the idea is to create a azeotrope with the alcohol/acetone mixture in order to quicker drying.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
Oh gosh, quicker drying is the problem I am having here.
Author:  Jim Watts [ Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lac Method - I Don't Get it?
I made real progress on my FP when I switched to a fairly dry pad using something like a 1/2 lb - 3/4 lb cut. It sounds slow but it flashes off very quickly and you can get a fair amount on in one session.
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