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| Shop air quality http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=50541 |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Shop air quality |
About a year ago a luthier friend of mine turned me on to his particle counter for testing room-air quality. I have since purchased my own unit and figured I'd share what I have learned about my shop space. First of all, I always vacuum dust from what I'm working on. I never blow or sweep the sanding dust off of the part. I think the benefits of this practice are obvious. My cyclone dust collector uses a merv16 filter which if I'm remember correctly is good for 99.9% down to .3 microns. After seeing the passing of so many prominent luthiers this year I figured It'd be a good idea to take a look at what I can do to make my shop a safer place to be. Air quality for me tops the list. After turning on the counter, I got an initial reading of 1600. I then ran my cyclone for 5 minutes, my 700 sqft shop was down to 70 (check the photos to see the range). I really don't want to have to remember to turn on my cyclone now and then, so now I'm looking into a dedicated air filter with a timer, or better yet a sensor of some sort. Anyway, M |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
This one? https://www.amazon.com/Dylos-DC1100-Pro ... dpSrc=srch A little spendy, but worth every penny I'm sure. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
bcombs510 wrote: This one? https://www.amazon.com/Dylos-DC1100-Pro ... dpSrc=srch A little spendy, but worth every penny I'm sure. Yessir! It is a bit pricey. I know they make the non-pro version for a bit less. I'm not sure what you lose for money. How much was your last Dr. visit? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I've wanted one of those for a while now. My cyclone is also merv16. I also have a Honeywell HEPA filter which runs 24/7. Wynn Environmental makes merv16 filters that fit into your standard delta/jet whatever air filter, turning them into very good general air filters instead of particle spreaders. Most of those have a timer, you could either just hit it first thing on entering shop, or last, or better both... |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
This really is something we all need to take very seriously. I need to take it more seriously myself. Even though I am not full time in my shop it's still an issue. Thanks for the reminder! I do all my heavy sanding outside. Of course even planes and scrapers put fine particles in the air. Inside I use a down draft table or my Festool orbital sander hooked up to my vacuum. The vacuum is a shop vac with a filter but in front of that is one of those Clear Vue Cyclones bucket vortex collectors that attaches in front of the vacuum. Those things work surprisingly well. I also have an hanging Grizzly air filter. |
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| Author: | Mark Fogleman [ Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
jfmckenna wrote: This really is something we all need to take very seriously. I need to take it more seriously myself. Even though I am not full time in my shop it's still an issue. Thanks for the reminder! I do all my heavy sanding outside. Of course even planes and scrapers put fine particles in the air. Inside I use a down draft table or my Festool orbital sander hooked up to my vacuum. The vacuum is a shop vac with a filter but in front of that is one of those Clear Vue Cyclones bucket vortex collectors that attaches in front of the vacuum. Those things work surprisingly well. I also have an hanging Grizzly air filter. You might want to consider a Gore Cleanstream hepa filter cartridge for your shop vac. To clean you shake it out and rinse off in the sink. Mine is ~15 years old and still works/looks as good as new. The bucket style mini cyclones and the Thein style diverters don't trap the particles <1 micron which can go deep into your lungs. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
Thank you Michael, wish they would have had those when I was building. Wonder if something similar is made to measure fumes? |
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| Author: | Mark Fogleman [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
Haans wrote: Thank you Michael, wish they would have had those when I was building. Wonder if something similar is made to measure fumes? If you smell it you're breathing it. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
Haans wrote: Thank you Michael, wish they would have had those when I was building. Wonder if something similar is made to measure fumes? The results of a 60 second Google search: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/produ ... gJwQ_D_BwE No idea if it identifies specific compounds. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I used vapor measuring devices in my job as an environmental engineer. We used OVAs (organic vapor analyzers) and PIDs (photoionization detectors). They are both quite expensive ($2000 and higher) and they only measure total volatile organic concentration. In order to get identification of the specific compounds present you need a portable gas chromatograph which is insanely expensive. What is your specific application Haans? |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I have this same Dylos air quality monitor. If the number on the left gets higher than about 500 I put on my respirator and crank up the air filters until the number drops back below 500 then I can take my mask off. Usually the air quality in my shop is really good because I have all the biggest dust makers hooked up to dust collection, and I vacuum my entire shop a few times per week. One of the best investments I have made for my shop is the professional shop cleanup kit for my Festool vac. I can vacuum my entire shop in just a few minutes with this. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I don't have any use for any of it anymore...too late for me. Just thinking some of you guys might want to know the amount of dust and fumes you inhale. After all, as someone said: "If you smell it, you're breathing it", air freshener, dryer sheets, mens "perfume" (gag), scented clothes soap, lacquer, French Polish, that lovely "fireplace smell", etc, etc. |
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| Author: | Barry Daniels [ Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
The particle counter being discussed in this thread is the proper tool for measuring dust and fumes. The PID and OVA are strictly designed for measuring volatile vapors. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I had a nasty shock yesterday after spraying a coat of EM6000 on a student guitar. I was in a hurry, sprayed the coat, opened the externally vented spray booth door and headed to the sink to rinse the gun. On my way back to the booth to put the gun away and close the door, I glanced at the particle counter and it registered over 40k. Yes I had my resperator on........ Under 300 is good, but 40k? and you can't see it in the air! BTW 3k+ is considered very poor air quality? |
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| Author: | Mark Fogleman [ Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
Michaeldc wrote: I had a nasty shock yesterday after spraying a coat of EM6000 on a student guitar. I was in a hurry, sprayed the coat, opened the externally vented spray booth door and headed to the sink to rinse the gun. On my way back to the booth to put the gun away and close the door, I glanced at the particle counter and it registered over 40k. Yes I had my resperator on........ Under 300 is good, but 40k? and you can't see it in the air! BTW 3k+ is considered very poor air quality? The particles which have the most potential for damage are invisible w/o a microscope (~0.3-1.5 microns). I'm not sure what happens to your lungs when you inhale EM6000 but you're smart to use a respirator. Hopefully it has a filter appropriate for small particles in addition to fumes and fits well. I ran a Pulmonary Lab in a large hospital and we did lots of occupational testing in addition to measuring pulmonary function on sick people. We used a saccharin "smoke" inside a space helmet type thing in which the person wore their mask to do respirator leak tests. It had ~0.3 micron diameter particles which were invisible but you could taste it if you had a leak. We also used a Bitrex (the most bitter substance known) nebulizer which had a wider range of particle sizes. Very few false negatives with that stuff and nobody with a full beard ever passed the test. So if having an ecoli farm around your mouth (beard) isn't reason enough to shave it off there's this bad news to consider. |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I have one of the Dylos particle counters. I have also seen readings around 40k after spraying EM6000. It also shows a high count when I run an ultrasonic humdifier (on the other side of the room), and the count goes into the thousands when I use the bending iron (with an electric heating element). In all of these cases, there is nothing to see. I haven’t figured out what it is responding to with the humidifier. But I am happy to have it because it warns me when to wear the mask and turn on the filter. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
A particle counter does nothing for fumes, though. It's the fumes that get you. "Off-gassing" is a very nasty word. The last 4 years before I started building again, I worked in a "Store Fixture" company as a cabinetmaker. They were OSHA approved with their waterfall industrial spray booths and OSHA would check them out once a year, but when OSHA wasn't around, they would spray the cabinets and shove them out into the shop to "dry". I would go home with a HUGE headache every day, Monday-Friday, recover over the weekend only to start all over the next Monday. I am sure this was a major contributing factor to my condition. Wish I would have had one of these 25 years ago... http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/gener ... -voc08.htm A few hundred bucks is worth it... |
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| Author: | bionta [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I’ve noticed the same effect of the particle meter reacting to the ultrasonic humidifier. Those humidifiers leave a fine coating of white dust on furniture in the house. I think they tend to atomize water with dissolved minerals in it, and that is the white dust that settles out. The Dylos meter is seeing those particles. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | bobgramann [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
I don’t think it’s the minerals in the water in my shop. I filter the water and the humidifier has it’s own resin filter for the minerals and there are no deposits in the house from the humidifier. I’ve watched for them and was relieved when they didn’t materialize. |
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| Author: | Mark Fogleman [ Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Shop air quality |
The ultrasonic humidifier is actually a nebulizer and humidifies by spraying small particles of water into the air. Most are in the sub micron range. Your particle counter is picking them up before they evaporate and/or the mineral powder left after they evaporate. |
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