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tuner knobs too tight
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Author:  Spyder [ Thu May 03, 2018 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  tuner knobs too tight
OK, so close to being finished with #1, but ran into another issue I didn't expect. When bringing the guitar up to pitch, some of the tuner knobs get so hard to turn that I barely can tune it with my fingers. So I am wondering if I have done something wrong on the installation. Here are the details:

Slot head Antes Parlor guitar
Light gauge strings
Stew Mac Golden Age tuners, in the bright chrome plated metal
These tuners are three on a plate
Installed with the knob post on the end side of the string post, so in case of any pull on that post, it will tend to push the two gears together.

My first question is, is it better to install them with the knob post on the body side of the winding post? Will that take tension off the gears so they won't be so hard to turn?

I removed the tuners, then lubricated everything with speedometer cable lubricant (light oil with graphite), and it seems to help free them up some. Is that enough? I did notice that out of the package, some knobs are harder to turn than others, and this is in a free state, meaning held in my hand and not installed.

Anyone else run into this? Seriously, I was planning on playing this thing tonight to start breaking it in, and now I'm stuck again, this time with a purchased part. Seems like this project will never end!

If it means anything, three of the strings broke while I was unwinding them to take them off.
Any help or suggestions appreciated!
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu May 03, 2018 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Spyder wrote:
If it means anything, three of the strings broke while I was unwinding them to take them off.
Any help or suggestions appreciated!


That would concern me. Is it possible the nut slots are too tight and pinching the strings making it hard to turn the tuners? Is the break angle of the back of the nut correct? I would focus on the nut if you are having that much trouble just getting it strung up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Spyder [ Thu May 03, 2018 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
That is entirely possible. This being my first, means every piece of it is the first guitar part I have made including the nut. I did my best to follow the instructions in the Cumpiano book, and also read more on the net and watched some videos. But who knows, this may be the problem. I just noticed with the tuners that when I took them out of the package, one knob was harder to turn than the others, and that one was the worst when I had the strings on. But several were very hard to turn, and breaking strings might well be due to the nut.

So:
(1) what is the correct way to install the tuners on this guitar? With the knob post on the body side or end side of the string post?
(2) what is the best way to slick up the slots in the nut without making them too wide?

Thanks for all the help, I'm getting there!
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu May 03, 2018 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
1. God knows I'm no expert on slot head tuners, but all the photos on the StewMac website that I can see show the knob post at the peghead end and the string post on the body end. That is enough to convince me that you should do it that way, instead of the way you have it now.

2. For string slots, too wide is way less of an issue than too narrow, so plan on erring on the side of too wide and you will be fine. Too wide is no big deal. Just don't make them too deep. The way to get what you want is to use a slightly larger file for each slot than you used before. If you don't have wider files, then take the files you used before and run them through a bit askew, focusing on the walls of the slots rather than the floors of the slots. You can also take the broken strings and run those through the slots like the blade of a coping saw.
Author:  Freeman [ Thu May 03, 2018 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Did you drill the holes for the tuner shafts yourself or was it a premade neck? If so, how did you drill them? I use the 3 (and 6) on a plate tuners and while they aren't as smooth as some of the singles, as long as you carefully lay out the holes and drill them at right angles to the sides of the neck they seem to work fine.
Author:  Spyder [ Thu May 03, 2018 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
I drilled these holes myself, which was my first concern. Maybe they are not as true as they should be, but the tuners do turn pretty well when installed until I get the strings pretty tight. I have attached some pics, maybe that will help spot something. Yes, looks like the two in the middle may be too deep, they are the most troublesome ones. When I made the nut, I cut the top back 10 degrees. Then after starting the slots, I took the nut out, clamped it in a vice, and used my files to work the slots. I tried to tilt the file at an even greater angle to help with the strings, maybe need to go further. One pic shows the tuners installed, with the other set beside it. The installed one has the knob post on the end side of the string post, as I see it.

Check the pics, see if anything gets confirmed or something else comes to mind. Thanks!
Author:  Freeman [ Thu May 03, 2018 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
I'm going to guess that the holes are not perfectly parallel with each other and perpendicular to the sides - it doesn't take much. I clamp the head of my necks to a big block of wood and level it perfectly on the drill press deck.

Image

Image

I forget the drill bit size but I think its metric - be sure to use a brad point. Clean any finish out of the holes. When I mount the tuners I push them against the side of the hole farthest from the nut, then drill the mounting holes. My logic, for what its worth, is that the strings pull the shafts back towards the nut, I want to preload them slightly.

I'm going to suggest opening the holes slightly on yours. Functionally it shouldn't matter which way they are installed but the normal way is with the knobs away from the nut (as is mounted). Also while they are off the guitar make sure they are smooth - the screw that holds the gear on preloads it against the worm, you might need to very slightly back it off.
Author:  Mark Mc [ Thu May 03, 2018 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Phil
Don't worry. You will get to be playing that baby before long, but the set-up stage is really important to the playability of the instrument. You are likely to keep tweeking it for some time.

Slothead tuners can work OK whether you install with posts above the winders, or below. But the conventional way is as you have done it, with the knobs being further away from the nut than the shaft that the strings wind onto. So that shouldn't be your problem. They can be stiff if the holes are too tight, or not true to the angle of the shaft - so causing friction in the hole. But that situation would make it feel stiff all of the time, even when there is no string. If it turns fairly well without a string, and OK when you start winding a string, but then gets tight when the string comes to tension - that is a problem at the nut. The string is not moving freely throught the slot. As you tighten it you are just cranking hard on the bit of string which is between the tuner and the nut, but not pulling through to the main length of the string.

Looking at your nut I think it is too high, and not rounded off the back side enough. There is a lot of friction of the string in that slot. They may also be too narrow but it is hard to tell from the photos. Have a look at this excellent tutorial on nut shaping and slotting by Professor Hostetter:
http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html

Also, from what we can see in your photos the action seems high. Is probably high at the nut, and maybe also at the other end. This is a separate issue to what you posted about, but it is going to be the next part of the set-up that you will need to address. How high is the action at the 12th fret?

Stick with it - you are in the home stretch, but not at the finish line yet! Set-up is important, and worth learning to do well.
Author:  Spyder [ Fri May 04, 2018 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Thanks, this helps. Last night I looked at the slots in the nut with my eye loop, and they did not look so good. My best intentions with my files was not as easily made as it looks in pictures and videos. So, eye loop in hand, today I will try again and see if I can get this ting done. As for the action being too high, very possible. Can't remember if I took this pic before lowering the saddle or not, but when I stopped last night, the clearance over the 12th fret of the low E string was where it said in the Cumpiano book, so it was at least close. I would like the action low as I can get it, just trying to sneak up on it, knowing I will most likely be fine tuning these things for the next little while.
Author:  Freeman [ Fri May 04, 2018 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Phil, your nut and action are a different issue than the tuners. We all do setups slightly differently (and sometimes argue about the methods) - I happen to cut my nut slots with the nut in the neck (but not glued in yet). I have already leveled and dressed the frets and I know they are perfect, I've put a dummy saddle in place and adjusted the neck dead flat. Mark the string spacing and cut little starter grooves, then I string it up (the strings will hold the nut in place).

Image

I file one slot at a time measuring the depth by checking the string height at the first fret. I have target values and I approach them slowly - you can always go down, its hard to go back up. I use a file thats approximately 2 to 4 thousands bigger than the string, if I don't have the correct one I will rock a file from side to side. I carefully angle and slope the exit of the slot towards the tuner post.

When the first fret action is close to where I want it I go ahead with the rest of the setup. Relief is set first since I know that changing it will change the 12th fret action, I also know that changing action will not change the setup. Once the relief is at my target I bring the saddle down and start compensating it. When it is close I go back and fine tune the nut slots, then finally the action again.

After the nut slots are finished I remove the nut, bring the top down so the bass strings are slightly exposed, the treble will be in their slots. I shape the ends of the nut so it fits the slot perfectly and has no sharp edges, polish the whole thing and glue it in place with two very small drops of CA.

Image

I'll usually leave the nut slots a couple of thou high and play the guitar for a week or two, then come back and bring them to final height.
Author:  Spyder [ Fri May 04, 2018 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Thanks everyone for the pictures and the advice, I'll come back to this I'm sure. After a few more hours invested this morning, I had everything looking great, turners turning free, and nut all polished up with nice smooth grooves. Installed the low E string, and it sounded terrible. Slots are now too low, string hits the first fret, this nut is trash.

my first attempt was to cut the slots with the nut in place, carefully measuring depth as I went. I even use the same files as Freeman. But I obviously have much to learn about using those, since they resulted in the very rough slots that started me down this road to begin with. So I took the nut out, put it in my vice, used my eye loop to check everything, and they look great, except they now won't work.

I have one nut blank left. Time to back up and start over. Again.
Author:  Freeman [ Fri May 04, 2018 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: tuner knobs too tight
Take an ordinary lead pencil and sand it in half. Make the point nice and sharp, lay it on the frets and make a like across your nut blank

Image

That is the "zero" fret line - if you had a fret at that location thats how high it would be. In theory that is the lowest you can go with your nut slots and not have any buzzing. In actuality you will want to stay a few thousands above that so you don't get any buzzing behind the nut.

While I'm cutting the nut slots I'm constantly checking the first fret clearance, that is the real parameter that I'm trying to control

Image

There is one more test of the nut slot depth, if you fret between the second and third frets you should have just a hair of clearance at the first fret - maybe 3 or 4 thousands. If you have no clearance your slot is too low.

Use this as an opportunity to learn about setup. Before you start on a new nut measure the first fret clearance and and check that back fret clearance. Write those down so you'll know your limit on the next nut. Also, you can save a nut by filling the slot with a mixture of bone dust and CA glue (I've also heard that baking soda and CA will work). It might be worth filling the slots and trying again to see if you can get a workable action. I don't think the bone dust is a good long term solution and I certainly would not use that as a fix on a customer's guitar - I always make a new nut.

Fwiw - I have a couple of different sets of nut files but I use the StewMac ones a lot. I'm not overly aggressive with my cutting - I'll loosen a string and move it out of the way, take a couple of swipes (I like to see a little dust but not much), then I put the string back in, measure, and do it again. By the time the nut is done the strings are trash from being loosened and tightened so much.

A couple of other random thoughts. Before starting any setup I make sure the guitar is stable with respect to humidity, the geometry is correct and there are no structural issues. I start with the fretboard flat and level the frets - if the frets aren't perfect the setup won't be either. When I string it up, even with the high nut and saddle, I check and adjust the relief, that can have a small effect at the nut and a big effect at the saddle. I know that relief will stay constant thru the whole procedure so I set it now and forget it. I'll get the nut close, then go to the saddle knowing that as I lower it there will be a very small affect at the nut. When I'm close at the saddle I come back to the nut, then finish the saddle.

I'll usually stop a few thou higher than my goals and play the guitar for a few days. As much as I rely on measurements, I also get a lot of feedback from my fingers. If this is a customer's guitar I'll watch her play and ask what she is feeling.

Just like the back fret clearance, I use "next fret" clearance as my final check. I fret each string at the first fret and play it, if there is no buzzing I measure the clearance at 2. I then fret the 2nd and measure 3, if I have the same clearance it won't buzz. I move down the neck and measure each string at the next fret - ideally I have the same clearance all the way down the neck. If it increases all the way down the neck I know the action could be lower. If it increases then decreases I know I have too much relief. If it suddenly decreases then increases at the next fret I know I have a high fret. If it drops off above the body joint I know thats normal and won't cause any problems. If frequently does weird things right at the body joint - I have to decide if thats going to be a problem.
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