Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:53 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:32 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1576
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm working on a new SJ cutaway with arm bevel. I've never done any finishing on the inside before. I noticed that Robbie O'Brien finishes his neck and end blocks with shellac. I was wondering if Howard's Feed and Wax would work well for finishing these parts... Then, I wondered about doing the kerf lining... and then what about the interior back and sides too? I think bracing should be excluded. So, what do think? Finish or not? ...Everything (except braces) or just the neck and end block? ...or forget the whole thing?

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:54 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 935
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
What I remember from posts by repair folks here on the OLF:

1. Finishing the inside makes it harder to do repairs later in the guitar’s life.

2. Finishing the inside does not protect the guitar from RH swings as much as you might think.

So, if I remember correctly, the repair folks think that it is not worth doing.

I have not finished the inside of any guitars, but based on the above reports (which I trust), I am not tempted to, either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:59 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 1259
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Steve is trying to troll Hesh into coming out of retirement. ;)

I have considered making the neck block pretty when a side sound port is used. Something like Howard's on there might be a good and easy compromise to getting a finished look.

_________________
"Is this the one where I trot downfield and act like I'm lost ?" - Billy Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:16 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1576
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I noticed that Hesh commented on a previous post. ...Nobody said anything. Don't want to scare him off.

I've never finished the inside before, but after I saw that Robbie finishes his neck block I started thinking about it. I thought rather than shellac, Howard's F & W might be an easy thing that wouldn't cause negative impacts but look nice. I am planning a soundport, which opens the insides to full inspection.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:19 am
Posts: 161
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
For me it is all natural inside the box. I would worry about the wax getting into the wood or under a loose brace and then causing adhesion problems for future repairs. At least shellac and other films wouldn't seep in as much and would be easier to abrade away.

Kent


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2728
Howard's feed and wax is something you have to use periodically to clean and brighten a finish. It's not really much of a finish by itself.
Shellac or truoil or even ragged on Poly might be a better choice.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 11:04 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 3583
I think you need to ask your self why. Why do you want to finish the inside of the guitar?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:41 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2653
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have lightly sprayed urethane on the inside of several instruments to slow down the absorption of moisture during RF swings. It doesn't stop absorption but it does slow it down. You have to keep in mind that moisture will pass through most thin finishes but some are better than others at slowing it down and keeping it out. I use a very light coat.

Generally speaking oil based is the best. I have seen no negative effects from using it, but it is not for most.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:54 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:46 pm
Posts: 198
First name: Mark
Last Name: McLean
City: Sydney
State: New South Wales
Zip/Postal Code: 2145
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have applied a light coat of shellac on the inside of the back/sides of the last two instruments that I have made. It certainly makes it look nicer - especially when there is a sound port showing off the innards of the guitar. I don't believe it is doing any good as a moisture barrier - it is purely for appearance. I didn't apply finish to the under surface of the soundboard (because it is not so visible). I understand the reasoning that it might be a problem for adherence of glues to these surfaces at a future time (e.g. cleats for crack repair).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:32 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 907
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
A wax or non-drying oil product - which is what Howard's Feed & Wax is (mineral oil, naphtha, wax, orange oil) - is a terrible choice for interior finishing where future repair-ability is considered. Besides the lack of any real protection in terms of vapor transfer resistance, removing non-drying oils and wax is a challenge, and both the oils and waxes interfere with adhesives and most finishes.

Overall, interior finishing complicates repair work which requires cleats, grafts, or other additions, but shellac can be removed with less effort than wax or oil finishes or treatments.

My purely personal preference on interior appearance is unfinished, perfect joined, crisply worked surfaces planed, scraped or sanded to a buttery smoothness...it reminds me of the interiors of Japanese temples. A well-done interior speaks to me, saying "I am what I appear to be - wood and glue, harnessed to the builder's intent."

_________________
I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination.
- Scott Adams


Last edited by Woodie G on Wed May 09, 2018 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:40 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1576
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Okay... Howard's appears to be a bad idea. Sounds like the consensus is that finishing the interior (or parts of the interior) is a bad idea, which the possible exception of what Robbie does, that is using shellac on the neck block...

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:42 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:21 am
Posts: 1259
First name: Brad
Last Name: Combs
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Even for just the 3 exposed sides of a neck block? I haven't done this yet (putting anything on the inside) but I have thought about it when there is a side port. I would think it wouldn't matter what you put on a neck block in terms of repair. I don't think I would do anything near braces.

_________________
"Is this the one where I trot downfield and act like I'm lost ?" - Billy Bob


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:11 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2965
Four hundred years of tradition says use nothing...

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com



These users thanked the author Haans for the post: jack (Wed May 09, 2018 4:38 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:29 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:42 am
Posts: 1199
Location: United States
My Kohno 30, which is a top line classical, has inside finish on the back, and probably sides, but apparently not the top. Just fyi. However, I think most top line classicals are not finished inside.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:15 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:58 pm
Posts: 782
First name: Ed
Last Name: Minch
City: Chestertown
State: MD
Zip/Postal Code: 21620
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
A couple of years ago, John Monteloene was at the Woodstock show and he brought his Four Seasons (?) guitars. They were not only finished on the inside, but inlaid (inlain?) on the inside, visible through the sound ports. One of them had diamonds inside. Here's one now:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/506137

So if a guy whose guitars can bring a million can do it - you can too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:43 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2965
Nothing like a little anecdotal evidence...with diamonds too!
How many times has Stradivarius rolled in his grave now? :roll:
Bottom line is "Do whatever you want."

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:20 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:33 am
Posts: 907
First name: Willard
Last Name: Guthrie
City: Cumberland
State: Maryland 21502
Zip/Postal Code: 21502
Country: United State
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
Clearly there is room for both the natural look and some creative cosmetics...I know which I prefer, but let your tastes guide you....

Attachment:
Lessismore.jpg


Attachment:
Moreisjustmore.jpeg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
I respectfully decline the invitation to join your hallucination.
- Scott Adams


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:45 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1576
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm convinced!

_________________
Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:25 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 2728
There has always been a place for "guitars as art". It may be in a museum and not the music hall. Some ornamentation, tastefully done, is not a distraction. As with cosmetics there are some who can carry it off and others who make it look garish.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:07 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9158
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I shellac the Spanish foot in my guitars, but only because of all the end grain. Well, that and it looks pretty good. I did notice once when I was visiting Dream Guitars that many of the Somogyi x-students finish the insides of theirs. Personally I didn't like the look. Looked a little gloppy, like they were covering something up.

_________________
Waddy

Waddy Thomson Guitars

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:48 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 3441
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Waddy's post reminded me of the Greenfield video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAeXskZHC2o&t=844s), where a top is seen before gluing.
Looks as if it's finished (shellacked?) except for where it attaches to the ribs.
He did imply in an interview that he was greatly influenced by Ervin Somogyi.

_________________
“There are two men inside the artist, the poet and the craftsman. One is born a poet. One becomes a craftsman.” - Emile Zola


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com