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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:11 am 
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Cocobolo
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I can get a Supermax 16-32 for 1100 or 19-38 for 1259 free shipping. Any opinions on these?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:32 am 
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banjopicks wrote:
I can get a Supermax 16-32 for 1100 or 19-38 for 1259 free shipping. Any opinions on these?


I've got the 19-38 and love it! It's a much stiffer machine than the Performax/Jet 16-32 in that it's cast iron not aluminum. $1260 is a great price! I think I gave $1400 4 years ago. Can I ask where you found that deal?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:41 am 
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bcombs510 wrote:
Agreed about the budget. That and the amount of space you have will drive a lot of the decision. Many people get by with the 10-20’s and just take multiple passes. I have a 16-32 which can do plates up to about a 000 in one pass but I have to do two passes on bigger instruments.

I bought a Jet used. It’s been a good machine.

Hope that helps.

Brad


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It's 16" drum. couldn't it do 16" for a dread?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:44 am 
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Michaeldc wrote:
banjopicks wrote:
I can get a Supermax 16-32 for 1100 or 19-38 for 1259 free shipping. Any opinions on these?


I've got the 19-38 and love it! It's a much stiffer machine than the Performax/Jet 16-32 in that it's cast iron not aluminum. $1260 is a great price! I think I gave $1400 4 years ago. Can I ask where you found that deal?


https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/supermax-tools-71632-16-32-drum-sander?cm_mmc=Google-_-PRODUCTFEED-_-SUPERMAX%20TOOLS-_-71632&CAWELAID=600009240005407071&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=41176179794&CATCI=aud-72848052701:pla-532413982728&CATARGETID=600009240005469909&CADevice=c&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9NbdBRCwARIsAPLsnFa8S6-YlYzsscMT-XdtC_IFfy-Q_R5u9v0n68I7-Z-r5WTWqEPadi0aAmLGEALw_wcB

Free shipping, no taxes.

wrong one
https://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/supermax-19-38-drum-sander-71938-d

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:49 am 
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My 16-32 is on the truck from Acme. Might arrive tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:58 am 
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Cool!! What was your deciding factor?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:17 am 
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To me, paying another $159 to get the extra width is money well spent on the 19-38. If you want to run jumbo or dreadnought plates through without making two passes, you will appreciate the additional drum width.

Supermax is a good company to deal with. They are the folks who used to be Performax before that brand was sold to Jet. Great products, great support (as far as I have experienced). I bought a pre-Jet Performax Shop Pro 25 a few years ago. Since Supermax currently makes the exact same sander, they were really helpful in providing me parts and advice for my rehab of the machine.



These users thanked the author doncaparker for the post: banjopicks (Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:46 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:49 am 
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banjopicks wrote:
Cool!! What was your deciding factor?


I've been using a DIY drum sander that sits on top of my table saw and uses the TS motor for about 4 years. It's been wonderfully functional, but ultimately is a clumsy tool - slow adjustments, manual feed, hard to get even across the entire width, and no hold-down rollers. It also made using my TS a pain!

After researching drum sanders for a while, I don't recall a single person saying the SuperMax was a bad tool. Most folks seem OK with the Jet, but there were plenty of reviews from folks who have used both saying the SuperMax is a better tool than the Jet. The Acme pricing and free shipping was the clincher for me. I've bee trying to pick up a used on for about a year, but the ones that were available were generally 4+ hours away. I figured getting a new one with warranty was worth an extra couple of hundred after I figured in the cost of gas and possibly a hotel to check out a tool that wasn't local.

I went with the 16-32 mainly for space reasons. I've looked at both at Rockler or Woodcraft and decided I just didn't have the space in my small shop for the 19-38. 16" should cover 95% of the passes that I make.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:59 am 
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A finished dread is only 15" and probably the largest guitar I'll make. So I'm not sure if I would ever benefit from the larger model. If I do want to ever make a jumbo, I don't know what size they are, I could still do the flip.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:18 am 
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Well, actually, a dreadnought (as defined by Martin, anyway) is 15 5/8" wide when finished. To get a guitar that size, we typically have at least 1/4" of extra wood on each side of the plates before the box gets closed up. So, you really need to plan for plates that are 16" wide going through the sander if you want to build dreadnoughts. The edges of the sandpaper on both ends tends to be rough on the wood, so it is smart to plan on staying away from the edges if you can avoid it. To make single passes on a dreadnought, I think 18" is the minimum I would go with. Having said that, lots of folks like their 16-32 sanders, so obviously, buy what you are most comfortable with. But for me, I would not buy anything smaller than 18". Unlike others, I did not like my results when I ran my plates through the 10-20 I used to own. It was awesome on everything else, but I struggled to get the drum tilt correct when sanding plates.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:31 am 
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Good point. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:23 am 
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I bought my "used" 16/32 Ryobi quite a few years ago for $350. There weren't as many choices back then, and it was relatively cheap and close to home. If I were buying new and the price difference was only $159 for the extra 3 inches I would go for the bigger machine.
As Don mentioned, because the sandpaper tends to stretch some, the paper on the end of the drum is a little looser and this causes problems when you run wood under it. The clips that hold the sandpaper on the Ryobi are a PITA to use so I often tape the end of the cloth backed sandpaper to the drum. I only figure on getting 14 inches out of my 16/32 for single passes. Double passes require a little touch up with a ROS - not a big deal. But I would go with the wider drum for the small difference in price and all other things being equal.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:37 am 
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Clay S. wrote:
I bought my "used" 16/32 Ryobi quite a few years ago for $350. There weren't as many choices back then, and it was relatively cheap and close to home. If I were buying new and the price difference was only $159 for the extra 3 inches I would go for the bigger machine.
As Don mentioned, because the sandpaper tends to stretch some, the paper on the end of the drum is a little looser and this causes problems when you run wood under it. The clips that hold the sandpaper on the Ryobi are a PITA to use so I often tape the end of the cloth backed sandpaper to the drum. I only figure on getting 14 inches out of my 16/32 for single passes. Double passes require a little touch up with a ROS - not a big deal. But I would go with the wider drum for the small difference in price and all other things being equal.


I started with a used Performax 16-32 ($500). The paper clips on the Supermax are so much better and easier to get at and they hold the paper tighter. It's easy to reach in and reset the paper retainer if the paper gets loose.



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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:40 pm 
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suoermax 19-38 it is. I got approval to add the 20A circuit. I'm golden. Only issue is it's not in stock.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:04 pm 
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It will be worth the wait.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:13 pm 
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The clips on Jet sanders must be one of those things that either work for you or absolutely not. For me, it's 20 seconds worth of work to get the new roll on, while one of the fellows in the shop struggles mightily and seldom manages the job on the first try. I've watched him do a paper change and cannot see what he is doing differently, but there must be something.

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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post: Colin North (Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:52 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:20 am 
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Woodie, does the 22-44 OSC you guys rock have the type of paper attachment that requires a special tool to make the change?


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:01 am 
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Mr. Bond:

The 22-44 ODS uses what appears to be the same clip system as the 10-20 and 16-32 sanders. All come with a tool that is provided for paper changing, but it's neither necessary nor helpful from what I have experienced here re: installation/removal. As I mentioned, there must be some element of clip use which is obvious or intuitive for some and hidden/non-intuitive for others. I don't believe it is an ergonomics issue, as my hands are relatively small, while Mr. Morelli's are of medium size, and the bosses are large, with proportionate finger structure. It also appears as though it's not an issue of nail length, as mine are a bit on the longish side versus shorter for others here.

I don't know why the clip system works so well for us, but it does...unless Mr. C (a build student) is changing paper, and then all bets are off.

The one piece of advice I have is that placing just the first 1/4" or so of the tip of the right index finger on the contoured portion of the paper tensioning lever - the portion intended for finger contact near the end of the lever - and levering upward using the heel of the hand against the sander's frame seems to work quite well.

Re: the 22-44 ODS...we had a newer 16-32 in the shop (previous generation with SmartSand feature, but not the newest single lever bed tilt adjustment), but felt that the smaller sanders did not compare with the heavier cast iron construction of the larger versions of both the Jet/Performax and Supermax sanders, and the oscillating drum provided some of the benefits of an oscillating belt sander at a fraction of the price (i.e., single grit sanding, much less resin build-up on paper with certain woods, and more consistent paper wear). Having used the 16-32 and the 22-44 ODS, the oscillating drum feature is now a non-negotiable for me...it really is like having a wider oscillating belt sander in the shop, but without the issues attendant to that type and class of tool re: abrasive costs, maintenance, and compexity. The ODS system eliminates sanding scratches - it's really just a matter of some light sanding with P220 or a quick scrape with a card scraper to remove any fuzz to prep a plate for bracing. The reduction in time spent changing paper between P80 and finer grits, as well as the elimination of the need to remove deeper scratches allows quick cost recovery on the extra $400 spent versus the standard 22-44.

Finally (!!!)...if I was shopping for a non-oscillating drum sander, the Supermax 25-50 would be on my short list, as well as the 22-44. Both 20+ inch open design machines are much, much beefier than the sub-20" class open machines such as the 16-32 & 18-36 and will handle larger cabinetmaking tasks such as surfacing wide and long panels, bench tops, and even doors with appropriate support. Once at the 16-32 footprint, the extra space for the 22-44 or 25-50 is really not that noticeable with feed tables installed on both. For luthiery work, there's seldom any need for the extension tables on the 22-44, so I would suggest that the lengthwise footprint may actually be more manageable for the larger machine.

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These users thanked the author Woodie G for the post: Pmaj7 (Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:21 am)
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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:37 am 
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Now that I've ordered it, I need some advice on using it as far as buying extra paper and what grits do I need to finish up on. I assume I'll be doing a final sanding when the guitar built so is the 80 grit good enough? Is there a better place to by the paper if I want to cut it myself?

I also need to go back and get the wheels.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:13 am 
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In the manual for the sander there will be an example of how to cut your own pieces from a roll. It does wind up cheaper using a roll unless you catch the pre-cut for a deal. Sometimes woodcraft will do buy 2 get 1 or something like that. I would stick to 80 if you are trying to take off material.

You can also use the piece that comes with the sander as a template.

Since you got the wider one, you can do things like running sides through at a slight angle to reduce the heat buildup. Especially on rosewood, coco, etc...

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:26 am 
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This claims to have a self cooling drum. I wonder how that works?

I've seen on videos where folks run the tops and backs through until they get whoop sound. Approximately at what thickness would I hear this in rosewood and sitka spruce?

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:32 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHs7s1_pbAg

Note: I don't use this sound as an indicator of the right thickness, but he does talk about approximate measurements in this video.

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:05 am 
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On sandpaper:

80 is good, and that used to be all I used on my drum sander. However, the sanding scratches from 80 grit can be pretty deep. I have read that the most effective way to remove sanding drum scratches is to move to a slightly rougher grit and sand a bit with a ROS. This just gets rid of the scratches, and is not meant to reduce thickness. Based on this, I now have some 120 for my drum sander, and I will experiment with taking my last few passes on the drum sander at 120 instead of at 80, which is my go-to for stock removal. I am hoping this makes the scratches less difficult to remove later with 80 grit on my ROS. We’ll see. In terms of how to buy it, I consider sandpaper, even this kind, as a consumable, so I buy in bulk (the big rolls) and don’t hesitate to replace the paper when it starts to cause trouble. Yes, I clean it with a big eraser, but if that doesn’t do the trick, I replace it without worrying about the expense.

On the shaking of the plate:

Kent Everett has a great voicing video that uses this idea. I like it as a rough measure of when the wood is at a thickness where it can make music. Once it hits that point, stop thinning the wood, because from there, you just weaken the wood without increasing its ability to make music. Not the most scientific approach, but the results seem to be good, and it is an easy thing for most folks to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:45 am 
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doncaparker wrote:
... On the shaking of the plate:

Kent Everett has a great voicing video that uses this idea. I like it as a rough measure of when the wood is at a thickness where it can make music. Once it hits that point, stop thinning the wood, because from there, you just weaken the wood without increasing its ability to make music. Not the most scientific approach, but the results seem to be good, and it is an easy thing for most folks to do.


Some years ago I had the opportunity to attend Kent's voicing class and I can vouch for this approach. I still use it and have had good results (IMO).

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 Post subject: Re: Drum sander help
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:15 am 
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+1 for 80 grit!

I personally use a combination of Gore frequency testing followed by thicknessing to my target deflection. I clean up the rosette side using the 80 grit then use my ROS with 150 grit to sand out the scratches. Then I head back to my drum sander to remove all additional material from the brace side of the plate while sneaking up on my number. It's important to leave room for the final sanding with the ROS. It's really easy to overshoot!


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