Official Luthiers Forum!

It could be worse...could have been sourced from ABC, CBS, CNBC, CNN, Fox, LA Times, MSNBC, NBC, NYT, WaPo, or the WSJ...

All fail my 'lie-per-minute' test.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

As someone who lives in the Southern Bay area, what happened in Palo Alto is fairly commonplace today. It started in the '80s and has intensified since the utilization of the internet. It is nothing new, a bit more radical, or louder, than it used to be, but the presence of politics throughout every part of communities is evident.
Not sure that using one biased publication to discredit another biased publication from the other side really helps any of that.
Thanks for the local update Darren

" All humans are the same with the same basic needs and desires. What separates us are religion and politics "

Willard, you might note that the second post was sourced from CBS, one of the "Korporate Newz" fine folks on your list (thanks for making it a tiny bit more real, Darren). The point being that the Gateway Pundit is just about as credible as Daily Stormer, Breitbart, or White Pointy Hat websites.
Two things can be said about all this.
1) The old guy was "verbally" attacked by an off balance person, but is still walking around wearing his MEGA hat and not laying in the street shot dead by a gun toting 'Mercan or run over by a car.
2) Frank and the boys can take care of themselves and don't need (as Terry aptly put it) a lynch mob to support them.
3) Might be best not to talk about "lies per minute". That's almost a joke in this country.
What is a Yelp anyway...

I do love always being on the right side of an issue - it saves me so much time versus actually gathering the facts and understanding the other possible points of view.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

Willi, that makes as much sense as a brick in a toaster.

Although I don't condone an employer's firing of an employee for their misbehavior outside of the work place, I do find it funny that Antifa's tactics have come home to roost. I think they were the first to involve the person's place of work and associate it with things it had no part in.

here ya go Haans!

www.cuisinart.com/discontinued/toaster_ovens/BRK-300/

What?!!! Antifa is a relatively new group that is remarkable for taking up the tactics of the people they oppose. Tactics I personally find abhorrent, but in what parallel universe are they the "first to involve the person's place of work?"

" but in what parallel universe are they the "first to involve the person's place of work?" "

You probably know more about these things Randolph,
I live in a Hollow and don't get out much.
Being a basically a non political person, the first time I noticed that was when news excerpts showed them talking about taking the pictures of the neonazi and other fringe group participants and associating them with the places they work.

Very well done...substituting the brick kiln (your brick 'toaster') for brick as building material to draw a wonderfully subtle metaphor...the tendency of some individuals, especially the very young and the aged, to wall themselves in such that their view becomes profoundly narrow and largely immune to meaningful evolution or change, whether by confrontation with facts, logic or by reason. Masterfully wrought.

I doff my summer-ready Panama hat, sir.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

When Ann Arbor Guitars was flamed over a personal political expression that went viral on a hate site on facebook called "The Deplorables" we had close to 50 people lie posting fake reviews and claiming to have been customers when they were in other states, didn't play guitar and in some cases suffered from mental illness. We had messages left on our phone threatening to kill us or worse.... and we also had messages from a person who claimed that Obama installed a chip in their head and it was affecting their ability to think.

Our clients and many of you here, thank you very, very much once again folks all came to our aid and pushed back, hard with both positive reviews and in some cases they, you attacked the perpetrators and called them out. More than half of the fake political revenge reviews were removed by the authors but it still harmed us in so much as we had never had anything but five star reviews until this happened.

Even folks here on the OLF who I had not gotten along with in the past stepped up and helped us and that just really took me back and still does. I'll add too as a guy who is constantly taking measures of business and employing my GE corporate training metrics to assess our business our business spiked after this with around 16% growth that has continued to one degree or another ever since. Or, in other words, if you can survive the **** storm you may find that being flamed on the Internet these days although scary at times may not mean a hill of beans. That's my hope for Frank and Gryphon.

Today we have over 42 people waiting on our waiting list for their turn to bring us their guitar. Appointments are now required with us for anything beyond a set-up and we are also now closed on Tuesdays and Thursdays as "protected time" to do the work and it's really, really nice too.... Or, in other words you do come out of these things and I honestly think that it actually helped us grow. Dave and I frequently joke of doing it again but intentionally to get some free press and permit the next generation of our clients to take psychological ownership of us and pull for us in the future.

I'll add that those who helped us and there were dozens and dozens here alone (thank you again) in some cases seemed to begin to take some psychological ownership of Ann Arbor Guitars now that they, you had skin in the game pulling for our success. Many of you follow us on facebook and are very supportive to this day. This is a good thing to me and although we, Dave and I made mistakes we also had the opportunity to learn from this and we have.

As to what I think about this, Clay I'm going to try to avoid politics out of respect for our friend Lance and the fact that we are guests in his home here. I do think that the employee should have been canned this is just too over the top and I would have fired them too. I don't care if she has contact with the public or not Gryphon was like it or not through the looking glass and people who are in a position to be their clients, or not.... were likely watching what the reaction would be.

In Palo Alto my concern would be that Franks's market is younger than ours and VERY internet savvy perhaps lending weight to this debacle and the harm that it may do to Gryphon. Hope I'm wrong and it can pass quickly like it did for us.

Personally if you do stuff like this I'm not going to defend your right to take down your employer AND all the other people there that had nothing to do with this and work at and depend on Gryphon for the means to support their families.

It was and is a stupid thing to do and it's a shame that she did it. The old man did not deserve this either he was simply trying to get some overpriced coffee...

These days I'm not sure that one needs to play the numbers game and get a plurality of positive counter reviews. I had a guy call me and ask us to work on two guitars. The negative review he left is still on-line on Google. He proceeded to tell me that he had been banned from Elderly Instruments... and what he wanted done we won't do anyway because it's not our bag. When I told him that it's not work that we are interested in doing he got angry and abusive. Now I can be a bit of a hot head myself (but you know this....) and gave it right back. I told the a-**** that if he was banned from Elderly I don't want anything to do with his sorry self. His name is Carmine by the way.

So he wrote his negative review about Hesh here being mean to him and hurting his feelings and I replied with a detailed description of what a jerk this guy was and is.

That single interaction is brought up near weekly by new clients who come to us. They bring it up and tell me that my reply to him made them KNOW that they wanted us and only us to work on their very valued guitar because we shot straight, didn't mince words, were honest about expectations and ultimately were engaging in doing the few things that we do well and not attempting to be all things to all folks. Go figure...

Anyway sorry to be pedantic but I did want to illustrate with two examples here that not only can one recover from the the a-holes of the Internet I call them but you can actually grow from these things too in more ways than one.

Here's wishing the best for Gryphon. This thing will pass is my guess and even though you may not expect me to say this I sincerely hope that the old man is OK, he didn't deserve that.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Replying back to negative reviews with cool calm and collected facts is the best way to handle the situation.

Sadly, there is a long history in this country of people trying to get other people fired or their livelihood taken away from them for expressing their political views or joining political groups. From union busting in the early 20th Century to the Civil Rights movement and probably well before. It even happened on a government level. Essentially, that was what the McCarthy hearings were all about --outing people for their political views so that they would be blacklisted from employment. Of course, not just here. Retribution by hate groups against people expressing political views is prevalent the world over. I won't even get into where taking a person's livelihood away isn't enough and hate groups resort to violence.

I didn't see that this young woman did that, but it is a tactic taken up by the anti-fascist movement. I agree with your sentiment. It would, in fact, be delicious irony if this woman had tried to get someone fired for wearing a MAGA hat and had lost her job instead.

Clay, enjoy your toasted bricks.
Wilhelm, your mind reading stinks. Try pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

Say what you will (I don't give a $hit anymore), all this commotion was started by me making the simple observation that The Gateway Pundit is not a very good source. It's only slightly LEFT of Adolf himself.
Antifa is not a new thought. It's as old as Adolf, but what is new is the Reich wing in this age of the good ole DSA, are the fascists. Are you a terrorist or a freedom fighter? "Which side are you on, boys, which side are you on?" My thanks to Florence Reece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion

A poem by Pastor Martin Niemoeller comes to mind:

First they came for the Communists...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

I'd also refer you all (that believe in something) to this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie

This is what's wrong with your world. Well, it's a sewer anyway and we won't be around much longer. Windmills cause cancer, you know...

Lastly, let me say to you all that this site has been rust belt reich wing for years. Some of you are decent, keep politics and religion out of the business of instruments, but others are just plain blatant.
Woodrow, please invite Herr Stock to come back. Tell him to bring his little buddy, Robin, the SS Joseph Gobbels sailboat and kapitan's hut back too. Then you all can have your midmorning coffee klatch or evening pint or quart reich wing rant.
I QUIT.

[/quote]Given that employment law in most states prohibits discussion of or other overt consideration of political views in the hiring process,....[/quote]

Private business owners, please don't rely on this. Federal law doesn't prohibit actions like Gryphon's against its employee. The law in a minority of states might prohibit it. If faced with this situation, proceed with caution but it most states you can fire or refuse to hire a Nazi or a Bernie supporter.

[/quote]I believe this situation is best handled with post-hire training and management/peer monitoring of employee compliance with company policy. That and a quick job change for those that failed to keep politics out of the work place.[/quote]

Yes!! In this area, an ounce of prevention is worth mega tons of cure. A call to a lawyer, maybe $50 to $200. A suit, even if the employer wins, thousands of dollars. Employment law is a very nasty space.

Not trying to put Woodie down! I always read his posts carefully and appreciate his willingness to take the time to educate and inform.

Hi Haans,
My post was not meant to offend. Did you notice in the link it said it was a discontinued item. Apparently a brick in a toaster (oven) didn't make sense to a lot of other people either. That doesn't mean someone wouldn't try it.
Haans, if you knew me you would know I am further to the left than right but I don't subscribe to the B.S. on either side. But I believe people have a right to express their views in a nonviolent fashion without having violence done to them. The man in the MAGA hat was expressing his, the woman with the mohawk was expressing hers but almost to the degree of what might be considered "assault". I won't argue whether Gryphon had the right to fire their employee or not, but I still think it was chickenshit to do so.
When people like Milo Yiannopoulos are invited to speak at a public forum, I believe they have the right to do so without having the venue attacked and set on fire by Antifa. His views are not something I (or most rational people) would subscribe to, but he has a right to express them. If you support the first amendment you shouldn't limit who has a right to its protections.
Sorry if I offended you with the link to the toaster, but again, as hair brained as the idea might be some one was willing to try it.

FWIW, there is more to this story than is being said here. I dont want to flog a dead horse . But the so called old man is a good FB friend of mine , whom I have known for 4 years. Yes he was wearing his MAGA at starshmucks . and yes he is also a vietnam vet and underneath his MAGA hat he was wearing a KIppah , a skullcap that orthodox jews wear, and yes he did not deserve that tirade from that creature .Their were also 2 online stories one by arutz sheva an Israeli online paper in english . The other one is on fox news.

there you go, you've officially Hitlerized this thread...way to go bud [/s]

what's with the "This is what's wrong with your world"?????????

YOUR????

here's what I know, you would label me as a racist simply because I get highly offended trying to deal with people who swim across the border and refuse to speak the language of The Constitution (ever heard of the laws of immigration and naturalization?)

YOU disgust me bud, you really do

I was speaking to hiring based on hiring and firing in a number of states - dismissal is another story. In 'at-will' states, your example of dismissing a leftist (National Socialist German Workers' Party member) or farther-left leftist (Senator Sanders is a self-designated Socialist, although appears to me to be more of a Fabian Socialist like former President Obama than the more modern variety) might fly unless specifically prohibited by state law, but I can imagine the social media backlash might be significant. I don't know of any California law - and there are some odd ones - which would have protected Ms. Mankey from dismissal for her behavior, and it remains to be seen if the victim of her assault chooses to press charges.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Mr. G.K. Chesterton. Tolerance is the virtue of of an enlightened man who has strong convictions but rises above the pettiness of others to respect the rights of others who have strong convictions that are opposite to his.
Extremes of both left and right should be avoided.
Moderation in all things

Alright Alright... break it up! ; )

I'd rather read posts about guitar building from knowledgeable forum members!!

_________________
Wake up and smell the rosewood!

There are plenty of outlets on the web for hostility revolving around unresolvable differences in points of view. So, how about we not let this forum degenerate into a facebook knockoff. Nobody's mind is ever changed about politics etc. by arguments on forums so why waste the time? To loosely paraphrase Frank Zappa: shut up about non-guitar stuff and build yer guitar (or mando, or uke, or violin, or terz, or whatever).

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Amen.

If that is your understanding of what Mr. Chesterton was addressing, you either have not read Mr. Chesterton, or you really, really love beige auto paint and no-calorie mayonnaise.

Simply put, tolerance is not synonymous with understanding...one can understand and appreciate the points of view of others while recognizing that those views are antithetical to one's own. That I choose not to embrace moral or cultural relativism is perhaps a broader but related topic than might reasonably be addressed in what is already a wildly off-track thread for a forum dedicated to instrument design and construction.

_________________
We have become a civilization that elevates idiots, prostitutes, and clowns. Am I still to defend it? Yes, for its principles. Yes, for what it was. Yes, for what it still may be.

-Mark Helprin, The Oceans and the Stars: A Sea Story, A War Story, A Love Story (A Novel)

This BS is why I rarely visit forums, was it an outrage about what happened? No doubt but WTF does it have to do with building guitars!