Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:06 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:06 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 854
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Chris Pile wrote:
You forgot compassionate....


Not going to lie. I get a little excited when I see you've posted on something. Even if it is only a few words.

When I first started in repair full time I used to get a little offended when people were as blunt with me as you are Chris. But then I worked the job full time for a little while and I realized that honesty wins the day every time. If you get offended then just "thicken up" as was said earlier.

Thanks for those who offered their input. I'm just going to leave this guy to his own devices and move forward. If the client comes by again I'll be sure to add him to the "too busy" list. Being nice has bitten me in this case.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:47 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm
Posts: 500
First name: Ernest
Last Name: Kleinman
City: Guthrie
State: OK
Zip/Postal Code: 73044
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The old adage ( nice guys finish last ) holds true in the geetar repair biz . Ask me how I found out ??


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:02 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
"The old adage ( nice guys finish last ) holds true in the geetar repair biz . Ask me how I found out ??"

I'll bite - how did you find out? It might be instructive for those contemplating guitar repair.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:30 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm
Posts: 500
First name: Ernest
Last Name: Kleinman
City: Guthrie
State: OK
Zip/Postal Code: 73044
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Without going into great detail, I ran a guitar/violin shop in Los angeles ca for 4 yrs. 1990 to 94 I had numerous dealings with folks from all over of the world. Since I speak several languages it was no big deal. The thing that struck me the most was that honesty with yourself and the clients is paramount.in running a successful biz. But even then, being assertive and saying no to some deals. is the best way IMHO . Having problems with saying no ? stand in front of a mirror and practice saying no to your clients who will offer you the deal of the century which comes around at least once a week . Learning to avoid clients , that have the potential to cause you problems now and down the road is imperative to ones success. Another, I found out that most of my competition carried inventory on 30 60 and 90 day notes . I always paid all my bills promptly. and never left a balance on anything. The previous owner left many bills unpaid. His reputation when he left, was tarnished.Paying on time opened up all kinds of deals. I accepted no credit cards. and took cash or checks with ID . Your experiences and mileage may vary depending on your location. By using cash or checks. I explained to my clients , that they were saving the 3 to 4% merchant fee by not using a credit card. PS I hope hesh or others chimes in to add some sagely advice.



These users thanked the author Ernie Kleinman for the post (total 2): Clay S. (Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:59 am) • DanKirkland (Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:58 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:59 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 854
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Ernie Kleinman wrote:
Without going into great detail, I ran a guitar/violin shop in Los angeles ca for 4 yrs. 1990 to 94 I had numerous dealings with folks from all over of the world. Since I speak several languages it was no big deal. The thing that struck me the most was that honesty with yourself and the clients is paramount.in running a successful biz. But even then, being assertive and saying no to some deals. is the best way IMHO . Having problems with saying no ? stand in front of a mirror and practice saying no to your clients who will offer you the deal of the century which comes around at least once a week . Learning to avoid clients , that have the potential to cause you problems now and down the road is imperative to ones success. Another, I found out that most of my competition carried inventory on 30 60 and 90 day notes . I always paid all my bills promptly. and never left a balance on anything. The previous owner left many bills unpaid. His reputation when he left, was tarnished.Paying on time opened up all kinds of deals. I accepted no credit cards. and took cash or checks with ID . Your experiences and mileage may vary depending on your location. By using cash or checks. I explained to my clients , that they were saving the 3 to 4% merchant fee by not using a credit card. PS I hope hesh or others chimes in to add some sagely advice.


Great advice sir, thanks for sharing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:51 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm
Posts: 500
First name: Ernest
Last Name: Kleinman
City: Guthrie
State: OK
Zip/Postal Code: 73044
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Dan , your welcome . good luck with your repair biz . We wish you much success !



These users thanked the author Ernie Kleinman for the post: DanKirkland (Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:29 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:39 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Clay S. wrote:
"Unless he works for Ninth Circle of Hell Music (Guitar Center), in which it's OK to point out that he is a troglodyte. I recently told both the clowns working at my local GC that if it was in my power, I'd cut off their hands (such a diplomat I am)."

Chris,
I think most of us understand you are a man of great tactfulness. laughing6-hehe


The definition of Tact : The ability to tell a person to go to H$$%$ in such a manner that they look forward to the Trip ! laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:51 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:46 pm
Posts: 755
Location: Napa Valley
First name: David
Last Name: Foster
City: Napa
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94558
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Tell him apparently you're not smart enough to hire the better tech so maybe were just not a good fit. I never work for people who tell me they got some advice from another person. Most people believe the drivel they read online.

_________________
https://www.instagram.com/fostinoguitars/
https://www.facebook.com/PuraVidaUkuleles/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:44 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
For a business person it might feel good in the short term to tell people to "hit the road", but feels better when they realize you were right and you are taking their money. bliss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:59 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Clay S. wrote:
For a business person it might feel good in the short term to tell people to "hit the road", but feels better when they realize you were right and you are taking their money. bliss



Some people are not worth twice the money they spend...... and that is a hard business lesson to learn.

From a solely cost analysis of this situation a fret job was billed for. What can never be billed for is all the lost time, like talking to the client multiple times about the same job. Time spent uselessly talking to a shop across town and then dealing with his bad rapping you around town for stealing his work, etc...... How do you invoice for that? That was all time you could be working on projects that actually pay. So actually its a double loss...

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/



These users thanked the author B. Howard for the post: DanKirkland (Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:30 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:50 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
B. Howard wrote:
Clay S. wrote:
For a business person it might feel good in the short term to tell people to "hit the road", but feels better when they realize you were right and you are taking their money. bliss



Some people are not worth twice the money they spend...... and that is a hard business lesson to learn.

From a solely cost analysis of this situation a fret job was billed for. What can never be billed for is all the lost time, like talking to the client multiple times about the same job. Time spent uselessly talking to a shop across town and then dealing with his bad rapping you around town for stealing his work, etc...... How do you invoice for that? That was all time you could be working on projects that actually pay. So actually its a double loss...


Agreed, some people are not worth fooling with.
Learning how to not get drawn into a time wasting 3 way conversation (tactfully) is also a good skill to master. For that matter, hob nobbing with a client too long beyond the time it takes to explain the work, write the order, and get their approval can be a waste of time for a busy shop.
I imagine Dan will think twice the next time he is asked to talk to a third party about a suggested repair. With a little tact he can deflect the request without wasting a lot of time or insulting the client.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:38 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:40 pm
Posts: 500
First name: Ernest
Last Name: Kleinman
City: Guthrie
State: OK
Zip/Postal Code: 73044
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I agree, with brian . Besides wearing our biz hats when clients visit us . We must also be adamant about not wasting time fooling around talkng drivel on the cell phone. Checking FB an social media. Especially in the luthiery biz time is money . The more time wasted , the less money earned . and yes I /m guilty of this too . Sometimes I get carried away with verbal diarrhea, and my wife keeps reminding me that I can talk the ears off a hound dog !!!



These users thanked the author Ernie Kleinman for the post: DanKirkland (Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:01 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:42 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 854
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Clay S. wrote:
Agreed, some people are not worth fooling with.
Learning how to not get drawn into a time wasting 3 way conversation (tactfully) is also a good skill to master. For that matter, hob nobbing with a client too long beyond the time it takes to explain the work, write the order, and get their approval can be a waste of time for a busy shop.
I imagine Dan will think twice the next time he is asked to talk to a third party about a suggested repair. With a little tact he can deflect the request without wasting a lot of time or insulting the client.


Keep in mind I wasn't asked to talk to anyone. He dialed the number on his phone and handed it to me. I simply played too nice and now it's bitten me.

If I want a suggestion on a repair I usually ask someone that is completely out of state. This gives better advice and eliminates any of the "you undercut me!" possibilities. It might sound pretentious but I've only ever asked one guy locally for advice, he is the exception and is a great person to work with and now. He build primarily so if I find someone that wants something done, I send them his way. And if he gets a customer who needs a repair done, he sends them my way. It's a great working relationship. I also keep working relationships (parts/supplies etc...) with as many of the local techs/luthiers as I can unless they've shown themselves to be unfriendly or are taking advantage of people's generosity.

I did not feel better about this job being done. I took his money but I would not be upset if he doesn't come back. The only service I'll do for this guy in the future is if I messed something up on the fretwork I did. Other than that, strictly business.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:30 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Our business is very fickle when it comes to even the possibility of another cook in our kitchen. If there is another repair person involved OR the client has notions as to how they believe the work should be done that are overly specific we tell them both to take a hike. I believe our web site even talks about we won't let anyone else tell us how to work but I'm not certain.

To be clear we spend a goodly amount of time and express a lot of concern (genuine) for our clients. It's not uncommon for a client picking up an instrument to give us a private concert for about 1/2 and hour which I love when It happens as we encourage them to put their newly repair instrument through it's paces. Other clients who come in during that period are always smiling too to hear the concert and sometimes meet someone who they are aware of but have never met.

We simply draw the line on our work and how and what we do is our business and no one else's. We are very open about sharing information we just won't let anyone else tell us what to do, ever.

There is a LOT of poor work out there and repair Luthiers come and go frequently, nearly as often as builders who don't make it. As such we have to have shields up for liability and reputation purposes every day. Just today, Monday we will have direct contact with 15 - 20 clients, have a half a dozen instruments picked-up and take in at least that many. We are too busy to let any trouble makers in the mix.

Last Friday when inquiring as to the humidity situation a Martin was kept in with a client from out of state on the phone he got frustrated when I offered that side cracks are generally, not always.... are not RH related. He said at that point that he thinks that I am an a-hole and I suggested to him that this is the first thing he's said in the entire conversation that we both can agree on. Next.

Anyway not to be too picky but "repairmen" or repair people ARE Luthiers and in many cases more experienced than most builders. Dave and I have built over 250 guitars collectively. In both our cases we got bored with the entire building thing AND the economics are just not there in terms of making a decent living at it. It was fun for a while though but we both lost interest.

So I refer to Luthiers who do repairs as either Luthiers or "repair Luthiers" since the definition of the word Luthier is someone who builds OR repairs certain instruments.

Sorry these two came your way Dan we have our share of them too. If you want I can give you a-hole lessons which might help you avoid them in the future? :)

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: DanKirkland (Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:51 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:39 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
In comparison, I work in collaboration with shops across the country on a regular basis. I have tools, skills and knowledge that the average shop just does not. They do the stuff they can and are comfortable with and I do the heavy lifting stuff like re-manufacturing pieces and parts, serious structural repairs or finishing.

In these instances I am a subcontractor and usually completely unknown to the end client. Dealing with another shop can be a real breeze.... they know what they need and what it should cost. I vet them much the same as any other client and as yet have no other shops on my "list". Some of these relationships with other shops have progressed to a point where they just outright recommend me to their clients directly for certain things.

Though I admit this is different than someone telling me how to to my job in the end every client dictates what the job is.... They decide what is to be done, if anything, and I decide how.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:31 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:54 am
Posts: 854
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Hesh wrote:

Sorry these two came your way Dan we have our share of them too. If you want I can give you a-hole lessons which might help you avoid them in the future? :)


Sure, anything worth learning is worth learning. If you're ever down in Texas I'll take you for brisket and we can talk about being professional A-holes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:51 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 2953
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
DanKirkland wrote:
If you're ever down in Texas I'll take you for brisket and we can talk about being professional A-holes.


I feel sorry for the wait staff at that meal. "Who leaves a 4% tip???" "Probably a couple of professional A-holes."



These users thanked the author doncaparker for the post: DanKirkland (Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:05 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:55 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3290
Location: Alexandria MN
The only thing I will interject into this thread is to beware of the tendency to wallow in your own greatness. The moment you do disaster is usually just around the corner.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.



These users thanked the author Terence Kennedy for the post (total 2): DanKirkland (Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:03 pm) • Barry Daniels (Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:37 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:26 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 12971
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
DanKirkland wrote:
Hesh wrote:

Sorry these two came your way Dan we have our share of them too. If you want I can give you a-hole lessons which might help you avoid them in the future? :)


Sure, anything worth learning is worth learning. If you're ever down in Texas I'll take you for brisket and we can talk about being professional A-holes.


Deal, I love brisket mmmmm :). Same goes for you Dan when you are visiting your family out this way let me know.

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: DanKirkland (Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:35 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:13 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2082
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I agree wholeheartedly with Brian....

Do you really want to encourage the sort of customer that has the nerve to bring YOU work and then wants you to argue with another shop across town about what to do and how to do it.... If they want THAT FELLOW to do the work - take it to him and pay him

That said - this fellow may have been very dissatisfied with the other fellow's lack of fixing things... It may well have been a test run with you to see how your work went....

If the guy brings you more work (which if you did this work well - he probably will) - he may now be satisfied with his "Test run" with you and all will go well... If he wants to run the same game again - show him the door....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bobgramann and 42 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com