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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:01 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:26 pm
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I like the idea of Rocklite, and I like Rocklite even though I have only used it for bindings. But, there is that non-sensical feeling of using manmade material that bugs me no matter what. The thing is that with ebony I like the fact that you need to take your time, know your material and to be very humble and to not to force it to anything. Yeah it is very hard commercially, but there is just something unbeatable when it all works out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:49 pm 
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Cocobolo
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I/m not a legal expert , but my guess is that many of the banned woods were regulated due to overharvesting in some poor countries that needed the cash. I/m also guessing that the end users targeted were large furniture manufacturers and producers that used huge amounts of these exotic hdwds. I doubt that musical instrument makers , and companies were even considered , But I could be wrong . During the previous administration Gibson had a large quantity of EIR and ebony from India seized by the feds.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Mahogany
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Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
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I've been seeing more and more pictures of guitars with Wenge fingerboards. Can we just collectively say no to that idea? I hate touching Wenge (aka splinter wood) to work with it, and would never want to use it for anything without a varnish protecting the users from splinters.

I'm an EIR guy myself. Occasionally try something else, but keep going back to EIR.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Koa
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Tai Fu wrote:

Why are they making such a big deal out of restricting brazilian rosewoods? Is it really causing such a big environmental damage? You know like ivory?


Uh... yes. If you are interested take a little time to educate yourself. Over harvesting of tropical hardwoods is arguably orders of magnitude more harmful than the ivory trade. One big reason is that if you cut down a mature tree in the rain forest a new one will not grow to replace it. This isn’t the right thread to discuss it; but, again, it is easy to research on the Internet.

Tai Fu wrote:
And if those stuff are so valuable, why can't they farm the stuff?


See above.


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These users thanked the author rlrhett for the post: CarlD (Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:36 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I just think while these regulations are intended to stop overharvesting, if anything it will encourage it more because it drives up demand. But then lawmakers never seem to understand it. They think if they ban something people will just stop using it. It worked out real well for drugs.

It's not that I don't understand why Brazilian is illegal but it feels like CITES is constantly tightening the noose around guitar makers. I'm betting east african ebony will be added, then pau ferro, granadillo, even Sapele. Next thing you know all wood except pine will be CITES.

That's also accounting for the fact that China does not care to enforce CITES at all. You can buy Brazilian from Taobao, even banned items like ivory. What CITES will do is increase demand for the stuff in China, and that means even more overharvesting.

And CITES will think by adding more regulations the problems will go away. A billion people can consume a lot, especially in a society where having banned item is essentially social status.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:05 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I've been seeing more and more pictures of guitars with Wenge fingerboards. Can we just collectively say no to that idea? I hate touching Wenge (aka splinter wood) to work with it, and would never want to use it for anything without a varnish protecting the users from splinters

Have you tried a wenge FB? It may not feel like you think...I know I was surprised.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:16 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
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meddlingfool wrote:
Have you tried a wenge FB? It may not feel like you think...I know I was surprised.


Nope. I value my fingers.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:52 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I think the wood you use is a design choice once all the qualities necessary for the proper functioning of a fretboard are met. My only reservation with using ebony is it's price. I have some and will use it when it suits the guitar, but it is not the only wood I use. As I mentioned, Pau Ferro is not a bad choice. If you resaw lumber, even at the current prices ($22 bd/ft), you can produce a "blank" for about $3 apiece. An Indian rosewood blank is not much more than that if you resaw it yourself. There are several other good woods that are even more economical.
Some people do have a preference for certain woods. For years the guitar industry has touted certain woods as being superior to others with very little basis in fact. Now that many of those woods are economically unobtainable they are changing their tune but are having a hard time selling "alternatives". Part of their failed strategy is selling one wood as a substitute for the usual choice.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:59 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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How do you get Indian Rosewood planks? I thought India had laws saying nothing thicker than 6mm may be exported?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:52 am 
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I’ve never used Rosewood on the 30 guitars I have made, no particular reason other than the open grain. I’m partial to Ebonies, especially striped, and I like quarter sawn Bubinga, and South American hardwoods I cannot pronounce.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:51 pm 
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If I am going to do a detailed fretboard inlay it is hard to beat ebony. It is easy to make mistakes go away with the dark color. Other than that it is a very hard, dense wood giving it great serviceability, even for the string benders. The down side is it moves quite a bit with moisture changes. When gluing it down with water based glue be careful to use the right amount (not to thin and not to heavy) and clamp well and long.

Other woods that work well for me are Cocobolo (becoming harder to get) and Pau Ferro (lots of supply, easy to find). I like the look and feel of both of these and with a little extra care they take inlay well. And both move less than ebony from humidity change.

But, many players, but not all, want the look of traditional, all black ebony.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Paul,

Once sanded, wenge is not at all splintery. I worry about its potential for movement OTOH...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:22 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
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"How do you get Indian Rosewood planks? I thought India had laws saying nothing thicker than 6mm may be exported?"

My local lumberyard still has it listed, though I haven't stopped in, in a while, to see what they have in stock.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:55 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:53 pm
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I haven't seen anyone mention Ovangkol. I bought a big 2"x10"x14' plank a few years back and it should work well
for fingerboards and bridges. I'll have enough to try it out after I resaw backs and sides.
If any of you guys have used it, please comment.

Brent


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:41 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
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I have only used Ebony and BZ. They both have been fine. I like the ability to do invisible repairs and inlay fills on Ebony. I love the way BZ looks. They both seem to hold frets well.

I plan to try the Ebony substitutes in the future. I really don’t have any interest in other woods other than Ebony or Rosewood.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Walnut
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Has anybody used black locust. I think it is has some great properties. Very hard, extremely strong, and has a great ring when you tap it. The main disadvantage is its weight, but it is still lighter than ebony. It can be easily blackened, it grows like a weed here in the USA, so why is no-one using this great wood?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:21 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Maybe there are other factors, like it's not commercially viable, or it lacks "status" (ebony is well known), or it takes forever to dry stable.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:22 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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oatesguitars wrote:
Has anybody used black locust. I think it is has some great properties. Very hard, extremely strong, and has a great ring when you tap it. The main disadvantage is its weight, but it is still lighter than ebony. It can be easily blackened, it grows like a weed here in the USA, so why is no-one using this great wood?


I’ve not tried black locust but would expect it to perform similarly to Osage orange in many respects. I’m happy with the one Osage board I have used. I can obtain both of them easily here too. Both timbers would share the same disadvantage, color.

How have you blackened locust fretboards? I know many dye fretboard material but I have some silly mind block that keeps me from doing it. I just want deeper color penetration. I did a board with iron acetate solution back in the early days and it was a real PITA, introducing that much moisture into a slotted and radiused board was problematic and the color was only skin deep. I’d love to hear a new trick.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:25 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What about pressure dyed wood, taking some hard wood like black locust and pressure dye it...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:16 pm 
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Walnut
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If you immerse the black locust blanks in iron acetate for a couple of days, it will penetrate deeply. Let it dry for a year or so with the ends sealed, then you can shape it into a fretboard. Cut 20 at a time and you’ll have some in stock for a while.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:10 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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How deep is the penetration you are getting with a few days soak? My experiments with red oak several years ago did not get sufficient penetration after more than a week and almost no penetration in white oak. I would expect locust to get even less penetration (than red oak) but perhaps i’m wrong.

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Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:17 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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You have to apply pressure to it. You don't just soak the wood with it, it's not like the dye has any inclination to penetrate.

I think you have to use the same process they use to dye birch for those colored laminated wood thing... which I guess means putting it in a pressure cooker. I don't know how black locust responds to it, seems they're generally done to birch.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Locust and Osage are both ring-porous woods, and can have hard and soft spots. Both have enough tannin to darken pretty well with ammonia fuming.

I've used a fair amount of persimmon or fingerboards. As the American ebony it's got the right hardness and it's tight grained, but it's hard to find any that's black and I have not had much luck dying or fuming it. Tom Thiel at Northwind Tone Woods made pressure dyed black persimmon fingerboards and bridge blanks for a while, selling them as 'Ozark Ebony', but the process was hard to make reliable and expensive, so he has stopped at least for now.

American hornbeam and Hop hornbeam make good fingerboards, but are not dark. Again, I've had no luck with dying or fuming them, but they do stain up pretty well with a walnut hull tea (as does hard maple). It's a surface treatment that wears off, but since it looks pretty close in color to dirt it's not terrible.

A former student sent me some soft shell almond wood that he got from wood piles in California. It's very hard and close grained, seems pretty stable, and is dark enough that it doesn't show dirt too badly. It might be worth somebody's while to develop that as an alternative.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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What about pressure dyed maple? Maple seems to take dye pretty well.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


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