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| Alternatives to KTM-9 http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=7977 |
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| Author: | peterm [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:20 am ] |
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Well, i was trying to remove a bit of painters tape from the top with my finger....long story short: A bit of pressure with my nail left a dent on the finish! 
I've been having goodresults with KTM-9 but it sure is soft!! cured for over a month too! I need to try something that does not require a spray booth...any ideas? TIA |
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| Author: | A Peebels [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:36 am ] |
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I used Stewmac waterbase on one guitar, and it sure sprayed nice, but I had the same problem. I've gone back to spraying nitro outside. I'm at the mercy of the weather, and I get an occasional bug, but they sand out easily. If I lived in an appartment, or in a city, this may not be an option. I also french polished one guitar, but once again I'm a bit concerned about the durability on the top. Never used KTM-9. Al |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:27 am ] |
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Peter, according to Udi, there is Yacht varnish that can be purchased at ACE hARDWARE STORES that can be applied with a foam brush or a cloth and that does not even need buffing, i sure will look for that product, take a look at his thread! |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am ] |
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Hopefully BobC chimes in. He showed me a guitar that he used a waterbased shellac on and it looked great...I didn't to ask the name of the product. |
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| Author: | GregG [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:12 am ] |
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KTM-9 buffs out great, but look at it wrong and it dents. I too am looking for something different/better without going to nitro. I'm thinking about brushing on some of the polyester product I saw Mario mention, I know it's toxic as heck but maybe not too bad with a brush and breathing apparatus. Greg |
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| Author: | peterm [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:37 am ] |
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Brother Serge, I would love to see that Varnish thread... have the link? thanks |
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| Author: | Jeanne [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:43 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Serge Poirier] Peter, according to Udi, there is Yacht varnish that can be purchased at ACE hARDWARE STORES that can be applied with a foam brush or a cloth and that does not even need buffing, i sure will look for that product, take a look at his thread![/QUOTE] Speaking of Udi, has anyone heard from him lately? If he's posted lately I missed it. 
I don't know why, but I thought of him today and hope he is OK "over there". |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:29 pm ] |
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Here you Peter and Jeanne, follow this link to Udi's thread http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7460& PN=1#103338 Jeanne, you're right, i'm worried about him too, stay safe Udi! |
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| Author: | peterm [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:24 pm ] |
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haven't seen much of him either....wonder what he's up to...
Thanks Serge! 
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:51 pm ] |
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Anytime bro! 
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| Author: | dberkowitz [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:10 pm ] |
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John Greven, Mike Doolin and I were talking with Gerald Sheppard at the Newport Guitar Festival. He is using Target Coating's Ultimate Spray Lacquer. The finish looked very good and didn't appear to have any bluing which is a problem with some waterbornes. His application procedure includes an epoxy undercoat over the entire guitar. You'd need to contact him for his spray schedule. I believe it was something like spray three coats an hour a part, wait three days, scuff, spray three coats, wait three days, level, spray another three coats wait three days and buff, but that may not be correct. David D. Berkowitz Berkowitz Guitars |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:31 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Anthony Z] Hopefully BobC chimes in. He showed me a guitar that he used a waterbased shellac on and it looked great...I didn't to ask the name of the product.[/QUOTE] I don't knwo what BobC uses, but Rolfe Gerhard (Phoenix Mandolins) uses a water based shellac from Target Coatings under the water-borne, hybrid varnish top coat(also Target Coatings, I believe), on his mandolins. His finishes look great! The most obvious non-toxic hand applied finish is French polished shellac, but it takes a while to learn. Shellac dissolved in alcohol can of course also be sprayed and will make a beautiful finish. |
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| Author: | D Stewart [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:28 am ] |
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This may be a stupid question, but who sells the Target Coatings finishing products? Direct from the company or is there a sponsor here to deal with? Donovan |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:34 am ] |
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David, I talked with Mike too about his new finish. He mentioned it was like spraying epoxy on the guitar. With the Ultimate Spray Lacquer, you get about 15 minutes to spray the guitar and then you have to clean out your gun with acetone reaql quick. It's definitely not a first-timers finish. I think this is the stuff Arnt is talking about too. |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:21 am ] |
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Terry I used Target PSL on a guitar and to my eye doesn't look as good as KTM-9. I don't know how much USL has improved over PSL -- but with PSL while the body is holding up nicely it isn't doing so well on the neck. Donovon - Target Coatings availability in the U.S. -- isn't that what StewMac sells under their Colortone label? Arnt -- I wonder if the waterbase shellac I was referring to is the same one BobC uses? |
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| Author: | GeraldSheppard [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:29 am ] |
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Hi folks, I have been using waterbase products to finish guitars for about 8 years. I've been using Target USL (Ultima) for about two years. USL is great. I recently saw a couple of guitars that I made about a year ago. Both were in great shape and one of them gets played every day. Yes, Charles Fox also uses it. When John Greven (who also uses waterbase) saw my guitars in Newport he told me he thought my finish was nitro until I told him otherwise. We did a hardness test right there on the end of the headstock. It's plenty hard. I think he plans to try Ultima. Mike Doolin has been using Polyester (Cat. Poly) for a while now. That's what he was talking about being a like spraying epoxy and setting up so quickly. Mike sent me a really nice email a few days ago after Newport and said my finishes had him considering going back to waterbase. If you see Mike's new Cat. Poly finishes you will agree they are absolutely beautiful - state of the art all the way. All finishes have their pros and cons and Cat. Poly (polyester), while it delivers a great finish, is hard on everything and everybody who uses it - and yes, it gunks up sprayers. Waterbase, Ultima especially, is a dream for me to use. You can leave it in the sprayer for a week or longer with no problems. It washes up with water in about five minutes. I use the Doolin/Grevin system 3 Epoxy underbase process which has been explained a hundred times on forums like this (check the archives). The only problem I have had with Ultima is the last three gallons I bought had a different viscosity. I was told that polymer research was continually making breakthtoughs and that's why the finish was thinner. It didn't explain why the third of the three gallons was thicker than the second, ha. But I can agree, waterbase finished are getting better and better at lightning speed. My process: I spray at 40% humidity. I use 12 to 18 thin coats total depending upon the pore structure of the wood and how well the epoxy filled them. Spray Session 1: 3-5 coats /day 1 hr. apart, wait three days, level and dry sand w/400 grit, blow off and gently wipe off dust. Spray Session 2 apply another 3-5 coats/day 1 hr apart wait three days, level and wet sand w/400grit, blow off and gently wipe off dust. wait three days Repeat process for subsequent spray sessions but before spraying last session, level with 800 grit and spray two thin coats - just enough to cover the 800 grit lines. Wait three to four days and do final leveling and buffing. You can wait as along as you wish to do the final leveling and buffing. It seems to help if you have a few extra days to allow it to cure before doing so. Ultima burns in great and I have often leveled with 330 grit and had no problems, but it's always good to take a close look at your finish after the first coat following leveling. I have accidentally made deeper scratches with sandpaper that did not burn in well. That's much easier to correct if you catch it after only one coat. Note that I said dry sand after the first spray session. I find that if I dry sand until built up above the really deep pores I don't get the little white dots in the pores where the sanded powder filled them up. That's a small problem that waterbase has but easily avoided it you dry sand the first session or two. I shoot for a final finish of .006" to .010". Hope this helps.  |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:50 am ] |
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File saved, thanks Mr Sheppard! |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:52 am ] |
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I have used both Target PSL & USL. I much prefer KTM9 IMO it is harder and a lot less blue in color. If you are finding KTM9 too soft after 2 weeks of cure then I would cure a month. RH will have an effect as to how fast the h2o will gas out with any waterborne. This may be your issue, I don't know obviously. |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:34 am ] |
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Gerald -- is Target USL significantly better than PSL? The reason I ask is that I sprayed my last guitar with PSL and after a couple of years the finish on the body is holding up nicely. The neck however is not faring so well. |
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| Author: | GeraldSheppard [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:24 am ] |
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Anthony, I hate to say it but PSL has problems. It will not hold up to perspiration and salt. Throw it away and buy Ultima or KTM-9. Terkin, To answer your process question I edited my original post above to explain it. |
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| Author: | JWarwick [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:59 pm ] |
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Ditto on Target USL. Very forgiving, easy to spray. It can be brushed on, too. Just for kicks, I flowed a single, VERY heavy coat on unfilled cocobolo scrap. One week later ... beautiful clarity, but some softness. Two weeks later and I could not dent it with my thumb nail. I use it over Z-poxy finishing resin as a filler. No adhesion problems so far. Jeff Weis is the Prez of Target Coatings ... chances are he's the one answering the phone if you call. Great customer service and very responsive to suggestions and questions. They also have a discussion forum. Check it out: http://targetcoatings.com/ |
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| Author: | JWarwick [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:52 pm ] |
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Oh ... one more tidbit: I use a SATA Mini-jet IV or a cheap (but very good) Astro gun, both HVLP, and my compressor. I've had some pre-mature drying and resultant grain in the finish when I've tried using USL with my Fuji turbine. Warm air from the turbine is a potential problem, I think. I'm sure there's a work-a-round, and it's probably my spraying technique, but there 'ya go ... |
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