Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:51 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:25 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
I'm a user of KTM 4 with fair results. I've run out it and I'm in the market for a water based finish. I might try KTM 9 or Target Ultima, they both sound pretty good to me.

I'm a real novice when it comes to spraying finishes. I have been using a Sears siphon spray gun (about $90) with my compressor and it seems to work OK, but I suspect I may not know what I'm missing.

I'd be willing to spend $200 to $350 on new equipment for spraying water base if it will make the job easier/better.

Any suggestions as to what equipment I should be looking at?

Thank you very much for any advice you might have.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:14 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2226
Location: Canada
Joe, I'm currently shopping/studying HVLP conversion guns to use with compressors.

The thing with HVLP is low pressure (8-15 psi) and you get very little over-spray. It isn't so bad with KTM which isn't hyper expensive, but can definitely make a big difference when you use expensive finishes like catalized polyester and such... I'm not sure what size 'tip' you'd need for water based finishes. Maybe 1.5 mm, or 1mm. You can always call the number provided here and ask:Appolo info

I'm no expert myself, but I'm sure that now you know of the Sears model's performance, you'd be amazed at the quality of the finish you can lay down with a good gun.

For the kind of money you're willing to spend, look on ebay for a nice Apollo, Sata or Binks gun. I've seen some awesome guns, both new and used, for under 200$. What you want to look for is all stainless construction (not just the tip).

I'm leaning towards the Apollo's myself. Don't really know why, they just seem to jump at me. Although the Binks are nice too... and the Sata's... Hmmm... decisions, decisions...

Hope this helps.

AlAlain Desforges38948.0961574074

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:42 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2226
Location: Canada
Joe, I've found a few intersting guns for sale on ebay. Check them out:

Binks no.1

Binks no.2

Binks no.3

These guns usually retail for around $400+

There's also this one:

Apollo conversion gun

Or if you really want to splurge:

Sata Digital HVLP gun

Hope this helps...

By the way, it's a slow night here at work... Can you tell I'm bored out of my mind!   

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:01 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:53 am
Posts: 2081
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Alain -- good info there. Joe I too have been told that if you want to shoot waterbased that you should stick with an all stainless set up. Having said that I have shot waterbased products with my Turbinaire HVLP system and the gun on mine is aluminum. I called Turbinaire and they said it will be okay as long as I clean the gun immediately after use.

Alain I use the 1 mm tip on mine.

Joe do you have a compressor or ready access to one you can borrow? The reason I ask is that with your budget you might be best served investing in a nice gun.Anthony Z38948.4191550926


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:17 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Alain

Very good info and links. I'm not sure I know exacttly what a HVLP system is. I assume it takes a turbine to run but where does the finish go? I don't see a cup with most of the guns. Are they similar to the airless spray guns you use for house painting?

Anthony,

Yes, I have a 3.5 HP compressor that works pretty good. I would consider spending more money and getting a complete HVLP system if it would give me better results. Short of that, maybe a better gun would be the way to go?Joe Beaver38948.4304282407

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:41 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:53 am
Posts: 2081
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joe with your compressor I would just purchase a gun. As I said above -- I've got a 3 stage turbinaire HVLP -- but don't own a compressor.

I am no expert on spray guns but a lot of folks have told me that you don't have to spend the kind of money you've budgeted to get good results. I remember reading a Doolin article on finishing where he says he uses a cheap gun and gets great results. The only time I understand it pays to invest in an expensive gun is if you plan on doing bursts.

Hopefully someone who knows guns chimes in. I just hate the thought of spending money on more gun than is needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:59 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Anthony,

I know what you mean. If I spend $200 or $300 or more on equipment it would be nice to say it was well worth it.

Like you said, how much spend on equipment is directly related to what you are going to be spraying. Automotive finishes are one thing and waterbased could well be something else.

I know some of the guys here are experts on finishing, maybe one will offer some guidance.

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:24 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6674
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
I'm no expert either, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.....oh wait, no I didn't

Anyway, I have a nice little touch up gun that I use for spraying, have sprayed 3 guitars to date with it, and it works great, I got it on sale for $30 can. I remember posting about it some time ago, here is the link to it. Some good stuff in the archives also, do a search for "spray gun".

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:47 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Rod,

That is a good link.. Thank you. It sounds like people use a variety of equipment with generally good results. Interesting....

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:25 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 1315
Location: Branson, MO
First name: stan
Last Name: thomison
City: branson
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 65616
Country: united states
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I have a Wagner 2600( I think model number)3 turbine. I have 2 and will sell the unused one. I have used this model on 9 guitars and works very well, with water or nitro. Has 25' hose, 1 qt. gun. At time I bought them, they were rated the best hvlp unit by consumer quide. You can pm me or email at sthomison@centurytel.net.
Stan


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:24 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2226
Location: Canada
Joe, the majority of the guns there don't have the canister that goes with them. I think only the Apollo and one of the Binks (purple) has all that you need.

HVLP, High Volume Low Pressure were inveneted to be used with a turbine system. Warm air, no humidity. The then invented 'conversion' guns. These HVLP conversion guns are made to run off a normal compressor.

I just gave you those examples because of the money you said you had budgeted for the purchase. I know there are many cheaper and more affordable guns out there. But, as in anything in life, I always feel that I'm too poor to buy cheap. Sure, you can probably get good results with a less expensive unit, but overall performance (spray dispersion and distibution) will be better with a high-end unit. You'll have to sand less between coats and all that jazz....

I feel that if you have the money, go for the best and get it over and done with. What's the expression? Curse the tool when you buy it, not when you use it...

Cheers,

Al

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:08 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Good info Al.

Do you have a recommendation for a good outfit for waterbase? Should I be looking at a conversion gun or stick with the old fashioned siphon kind?

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:08 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2226
Location: Canada
I would go with an HVLP conversion gun.

You can have either a gravity feed or siphon feed. That would be a personal choice, I guess. I think you will find that the majority of them will be siphon fed, though. Either way would be fine, I'm sure.

With a gravity fed unit there is no fluid wasted as you'll empty the entire contents of the cup. The claim is that performance is better with higher viscocity fluids (Apollo site) using gravity fed guns.

I know Apollo has the 'Super Spray' gun that is tri-mode. You can go gravity/siphon/pressured pot. I haven't priced them, but I'm sure they are very expensive. Probably out of your budget unless you find one used/refurbished. You can get the best of both worlds (well, three worlds really) with this unit.



_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 2226
Location: Canada
Oooops, I just noticed that two of the binks' are pressure pot guns (the green ones). Scratch those off the list...

If I were you I'd go with the Purple Binks(gravity). It has everything you'll need. Binks quality is world renown and it's still at a very nice price...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:17 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2801
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
Al,

Yes, I was looking at the Binks also. They look like great equipment. I was thinking of the conventional 2001SS with a teflon lined cup. It is stainless steel on all contact parts, should last a long time with water based.

You say I stould stick with a gravity cup? Any suggestions as to nozzle size?Joe Beaver38949.6796527778

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com