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Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!
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Author:  tlguitars [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!


So I took Bryan Galloups "Dynamic Voicing Seminar," and I'm writing a story for the FJ on my time there, but needless to say I'm in a whole other rabbit hole nowadays as far as my voicing knowledge goes. I've had this Cedar guitar that I built for Healdsburg 2 years ago and I built it with a twin that had the same BRW flitch matched back and sides but had an Adi top. To Be honest that guitar kills and this Cedar is simply OK to BAD (Boring).

Same Bracing, same pattern, but the the top was set to my Cedar thickness (before my voicing education) and the back was a little over sanded. There was a nail rust line that I thought was just oxidation and as such thought I could just "sand it out." Wrong! Anyway the back was left a little thinner but still in the normal range acording to all the specs that everyone tells you for a Steel String back.

But now the knowledge of what my back and top should be doing has hit and I've found that my top is the same tone as my back with the bridge glued on and the saddle and pin weight in so they are acting as buffers constricting each others movement rather then complimentary partners in moving the air.

The main problem is that I didn't know what I was doing in bracing my top and back. Not many builders do in the beginning I think. I went to my favorite builders shop looked at his guitars tops. Measured his braces: their thickness and height, placement as they fanned and connected to the x-brace over the top and sides, and scalloped them exactly like he did, same bridge plate design and proportion, it should have been good, right? It should have sounded like his, right? I used Cedar I bought from him and BRW I bought from him. I expected the same results that he gets. WRONG!!

It's kind of like what everyone else does (Younger builders especially- "younger builders" being less then 50 guitars). Make a Martin: X-Forward or X-Back, 5/16-1/4 brace thickness depending if you like "Vintage" or "Modern," scallop like this,... the reality is wood is wood and no two guitars sound the same. Densities are different, Speed of Sound is different in those densities, Modulus of Elasticity (the ability to flex under force) is different. I'm not talking Sitka to Red Spruce different, I'm talking Sitka top 1 to Sitka top 2; same tree same flitch.

This cedar guitar of mine just SUCKS!! At least for what I want and know it can be. OK, it sounds great but it doesn't project well and it doesn't vibrate with my hands as I play. I don't feel connected to it as I play. It doesn't make me want to play it until my arms fall off. It's a good guitar but not a great instrument.

Part of the problem is that I used an African Blackwood bridge which is heavier then my usual ebony bridge. Know your bridge weight with saddle and pins. Weight is a damper and top tone note lower'er, a gram here or there makes all the difference. Be aware!!

So to remedy the guitar I'm going to shave my top braces to lower the pitch of the top to the intervole I want it to be set apart from the back, I'm planning on taking pics out in the shop tonight as I revoice but there's only so much I can say, and show, without stepping on the toes of my Teachers. But it'll get your mind going enough to see what's happening.

Yes it's a big tease but we don't talk about voicing as clearly as we could and this might help some of us see "what's next." What more of us could start paying attention to.

Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Eat Drink
I'm watchin!

Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Got it done tonight and man it's now amazing, dead strings and all. I took pics before I started shaving and after. Now that I know how to voice properly before I get the back on I won't have to do this again but it's nice to know that I can fix a BAD sounding guitar.

Here's what it sounded like, sorry I forgot to play it with strings on.

Now my Back started at a Sharp G# to in tune G#. So and G#3 +.35 to .06c. There are 100 cents between every half step so I was right on the cusp of it being a sharp G. (Just 57 cents away.)

Which is what the Top was, G3 +.41c to +.76c.

So the top and back we're really just, on average, 40 cents away from each other. Which is waaaaay to close. And being that close the top and back basically got in each others way. The air pump couldn't function because both doors were opening and closing at the same time, creating a vacum... so to speak. Neither one could move at it's optimum.

Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Here's what the braces looked like before I started to shave them down. They looked so clean and pro, right?!?!

First off: When shaving braces you want to shave width not height. Tone is carried in height so the taller your brace is the more tone you'll allow to travel down the length of the brace, the more tone you'll maintain in your top. Now when you can't can't shave anymore width then you take height. Your taking off weight to allow the top to vibrate more which lowers the pitch.

Start by shaving down the X-brace. If you use an X Brace it is your "Tone Setting" brace. Your other braces (Finger braces and Tone bars) are your "Tone Affecting" braces. Think of it this way, high school choir style, sing a D on the word La. Now Sing that D on the word Lo (Low). The X-brace is your D note, it sets the majority of the sonic area for your top. The tone bars and finger braces affect the way that D note is delivered (going from an A sound to an O sound). Obviously eliminating the tone bars weight will lower note of the top, I'm just saying that the tone bars-- for the most part, affect the tone of the note set by the X-Brace.

Here's what happened after I took a small amount of shavings off from the X-Brace only. I kept the shavings so you could see how much I actually took off.

So there is a lot of control left out there to explore. Knowing the intervals you want your top and back to end up at is essential. Because just like mine were too close together, they can also be to far apart. Where rather then working together they just wobble and shake for the sake of shake rather then for the sake of projection and tone transfer.

They're not pretty now, but my guitar sounds better then most now.

Now, the most important thing to go by is that I took these braces down to a point where the top gave me a specific tone. The shape, the scallop, and the layout of the braces don't really matter as much as the the way you link the back and the top together.

Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

The end result: Monster volume and clarity. Definitely not the BS tone I had before. It was good but not exciting. Guys would play it and gave it right back. You can see me playing it on the video and I can't stop until I'd heard a full phrase of my tune. I was confused about how great it sounded. It's inviting and raucous,warm and brilliant, I'm finally proud of it. I'm not over selling here, you can hear it when I strum the stings and my Iphone Mic shows you how great it became. Do it to your Guitars, check em out, see what your tops are and your backs are pitching at. If you really want to study it and be able to link it all to great tone call Bryan Galloup and check it out.

There's so much more to this in the building stages, it'll blow your mind. This is just the fix; a correction for a bad guitar. New construction, it's insane what you can control and Bryan and Sam's system is an an actual set your numbers here and your parts there and you can then control your tone. It's INSANE!!!

A little Background on what the logic is behind this before I show my results. Bryan and Sam have spent the last 5 years working on voicing. They measured the tap tones from their favorite builders and favorite guitars. Old 1930's Martins, old killer Gibsons, and modern day builders that sell for high, high dollars. They found that most of the guitars they loved fell in a specific intervallic range and the guitars they didn't like were way outside that range or too close together (like mine). If you don't mind a little math, and want an actual layout of how-to, do yourself a favor, builder to builder, and check them out. I may be down a whole other the rabbit hole, but man I feel like I gained 5 years of better guitars in an instant.

Thanks guys, I'm so stoked on my build potential I feel like I have to share. It's insane what I just did. Insane!

Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

The Twin: Just incase you were wondering and need to kill another 49 seconds.

Author:  J Hewitt [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

What kind of tuner is that?

Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

The Pro Tune App for IPhone.

Author:  Chris aka Sniggly [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Todd what's that tap stick made out of?


Author:  tlguitars [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Scrap Flame maple that I rounded over and a used up sander cleaner that I band sawed into a triangle. Some thick super glue and some accelerator and I was done in 3 minutes, I made 2. It's what Galloup uses.

Author:  fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

In the middle of reading a book on tap tuning, voicing each brace, voicing the top, voicing the back, etc...and of course, as always I need more tools....or at least a new tuner.

Nice video,

Author:  DennisK [ Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Awesome! Sounds really great, especially strumming. Even better than its sister now, if you ask me. How about bringing it to Healdsburg again next year so I can do some plucking on it :D

Amazing what difference that one frequency relation can make. Did you ever try it with the back fully damped before the re-voicing? It would be interesting to know the difference in tone from the lightened top bracing alone, separate from getting it working together with the back.

And I think you might have found a new and improved bridge weight and material to use again :)

Author:  tlguitars [ Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

He Dennis,

I chose to "tap" for demo because the volume it puts out tapping is insane compared to any of my Goodall, Hoffman, Applegate and Martins ever did. But I guess most guys don't know what it takes to get that sort of volume from a guitar with that technique. By just tapping you mainly hear the body as it is able to sound, as the string deflection is so much less. I should have just picked something else but thats where my ear gages a guitars quality.

That relationship is the key to everything. I did iso the top and back but as this work belongs to Bryan Galloup and Sam Guidry I can't in good faith give away everything, thus the pile of wood shown to drop the tone a half step and just the finished sound. I just wanted to show the impact hoping to start a conversation.

For my story (and the last 8 months really) I read:

Left-Brain Lutherie, by David C. Hurd Ph.D. (Twice)
The Art of Tap Tuning, by Roger H. Siminoff
The Luthier’s Handbook, by Roger Siminoff
The Responsive Guitar, by Ervin Somogyi (Twice)
Making the Responsive Guitar, by Ervin Somogyi (Twice)
I also watched the Mayes Voicing vids.
Plus in depth talks with the best guitar builder in the world (according to me and most, I think).

None of those reads or videos compares to the work I did in the Seminar. I did, in college, take a Musical Acoustics Physics class so I already understood wave travel, sound transfer, modal vibration and the like. And I'm passing 65 instruments built but actually having my hands on the wood is what changed my perspective and furthered my knowledge. Most guys haven't had an acoustics physics class (or music theory classes) to teach them the math or the interval relationships.

Tap tuning is great but you can "tune" a top to make a great booming sound and you can "tune" the back to aid that booming sound but if it's pitched too low compared to the the drive of the strings it's only going to "respond" but not project. And are you working your top to it's optimal thickness, thinner isn't better. It's setting the density of your material to its best thickness... Man I am down a rabbit hole!

I played a 34-39(ish) Martin D-28, a Traugott model R, a 30's OM 28, 40's Gibson Slope shoulder, and 3 Galloups while I was doing the voicing seminar. I also saw data on guitars I had played at shows: Ryans, Applegates, Hoffmans and lots of other great guitars and comparing that single relationship on all of those instruments, it boggles the mind.

There's so much more you can do to a guitar if your aware of that relationship. It's crazy.

What do the guys here think of the idea? I should have posted this in the main area to get more comments. This is a "kept secret" (me included) sort of thing, but we talk in great detail about everything else that doesn't really matter as much as this in great depth. I figured guys would hit on the idea and chime in. Honestly back thickness, brace shape, Tap tuning, brace patterns, all of it doesn't matter as much as knowing how to set the sonics of your guitars, and exactly where to place them according to a set of strings that are trying to sound in a set area of octave need.

Sorry, you can see how excited I am about where my building is headed. I'm so glad to have a tangible process to match my theoretical understanding. And this was just a fix for a bad sounding guitar... new build work is insane!!

Author:  Dan Pennington [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

What's the exact name of the tuner program on your iPhone and where did you download it from? I can't find it.

For everyone else, I studented with Todd last fall for ten weeks to build an OM size acoustic and we tuned my top BEFORE the box was closed using Todd's homemade mallet and his iPhone tuner and his special frame to hold the top. I'm in the finishing phase now. French polishing.
I learned a lot of neat stuff that will make my future builds a lot better. Thanks, Todd!

This is Todd messing with the dovetail joint on my guitar.

Author:  Bob Garrish [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

tlguitars wrote:
I should have posted this in the main area to get more comments. This is a "kept secret" (me included) sort of thing, but we talk in great detail about everything else that doesn't really matter as much


<List of Hurd, Siminoff, Somogyi, Mayes publications>
Plus in depth talks with the best guitar builder in the world (according to me and most, I think).

None of those reads or videos compares to the work I did in the Seminar

So you are eager to start a dialog and get lots of feedback on something you're unwilling to talk about...except to say that it's a magic bullet that makes Hurd, Siminoff, Somogyi, Mayes, and "The Best Guitar Builder In The World" look like chumps? Oh...and it can be yours, too, for the low low price of $3K! That's not a conversation, Todd, that's an infomercial.

Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Here, here!
Well said Bob.

It's just too bad for us poor slubs that only have the opportunity to work in our own shops and try to learn from sharing builders over the net. Unfortunately we can't all make it to mecca for enlightenment, much as we may desire it.

I guess it's also a good thing I like country blues guitar picking. Quite a few guys did some pretty fine picking on some pretty inexpensive guitars back in the 30's.

"...remember when life gets you down and things aren't going your way, there's always a campfire and a can of beans! " Tom Waits


Author:  tlguitars [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Hey Bob and Joe,

Bob, not well said:
I get how it reads that way, I do, but certainly I didn't say "it's a magic bullet that makes anybody look like chumps." You assumed that. That's a dick thing to say, I'm not a dick.

What I was saying is that even though I read all the books there is not a "magic bullet" in any of them that tells you to "set your Spruce top here every time and your back here every time." They all lay out the principals needed for understanding the physics behind the instrument, show you the math to help understand what's going on within the guitar but they don't give you the exacts like having a teacher to Q & A with. Thus, "None of those reads or videos compares to the work I did in the Seminar." The work is the key, the hands on education and work.

I don't "understand things" until I "do things." I need a teacher and a guide before I can lay things out in a practical manner for myself. Books alone don't do it for me, no matter how many times I read them, and those books, while they are all great at laying out the principals and contributing factors, they weren't the easiest to just go out to the shop and pick up a piece of wood and instantly make a better guitar right after reading.

And my conversations with my favorite builder was based on his contrasting view because he doesn't do any tap tuning, "I tried it, but gave up on it," he told me. And his guitars sound great without tap-tuning. Although, his tops and backs share the same interval relationship as what I was shown in the seminar, but he does it by ear. I'm not him, I don't have is innate sense of sound. I don't know what he's listening to and he can't just tell me. Even the best builder in the world couldn't give me an exact how to. I needed something I could quantify and the seminar gave me that.

As far as "That's not a conversation, Todd, that's an infomercial." My reply is, sure that's a fair reply, a little terse, but fair. It's a lot to take in. I understand that, but it feels like just because I didn't give you the exact details of what I was doing, or exactly where I ended at, your first instinct was to go on the defensive and attack rather then ask a question about what you wanted to know. I was just doing the same thing all the books do, laying out the ideas behind what I'm working on but not exactly connecting my work to your work.

To me, I'm simply laying out my history and inviting interaction. The reality is, it's both a conversation and an infomercial. But how do you get one without the other around here? Everything we discuss here is an infomercial of some sort: the glues we use, the jigs we build with, the books and videos we buy, or the process builds that show "do things this way instead of doing this..." Why not a thread based on what was learned in a class?

I also tried to relay the impact its having on my own work so I could educate people who have never thought about those relationships before. I use "educate" because I had to be educated myself as I had to rethink everything about the way I build as a result. The priorities for the steps in my process changed, my perspective on my design ideas, everything. It was a complete education for me.

It's like asking, "Hey all, I read the Somoygi books and it was great, but how do I start voicing now? What note should I tune to? Where do I stop? The book mentions the relationship between the top and back but doesn't tell me exactly what note to take my Spruce and Rosewood to. What about Cedar?" Nobody answers those posts, there's too many factors to just give a answer that will cover everything.

This way I'm showing exactly what I'm doing and establishing a starting point. I was trying to gage if anyone does anything similar, the obvious answer now, is no but I was willing to engage and share in a thread my recent education and results.

I never mentioned the cost of the seminar, still haven't. I didn't lord it, nor would I ever, over anyone as a point of superiority as you are doing to me or at least trying to infer that I am to everyone else. I don't get your attack at all.


I'd never try to discredit, or talk down to, anyone who uses these forums as a source of information, how tactless. I gain a lot from them. What would I be saying about myself? Thats totally not what I'm about and that's not what this thread is about either. I'm not saying "hey look at what I did and how much more I know then all of you lowly forum builders." Who would do that?

And if your trying to cheapen my statements on instruments made in the 30's, you need to remember I didn't say if they were good or bad sounding instruments. And the guitars your favorite players played on back in the 30's weren't cheap for them either. I come from a family who paid for guitars with bags of potato's and cheap labor to build a hog barn, cost is the last thing I consider as a value indicator. Where did that come from? Maybe the pervious post? I'm not attacking your favorite blues players, or 30's instruments. It seems like just a jab for a jabs sake. I don't understand your point or how it relates to my thread.

I'm typing as if I you were in the room with me. Sorry if this approach turns people off but sometimes just getting the background and a how I'm doing it is better then just getting the answers. They're not mine to just give away anyway.

This is what I want to learn about for my building. So I posted.


Author:  Bob Garrish [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

tlguitars wrote:
This way I'm showing exactly what I'm doing and establishing a starting point. I was trying to gage if anyone does anything similar, the obvious answer now, is no but I was willing to engage and share in a thread my recent education and results.

I never mentioned the cost of the seminar, still haven't. I didn't lord it, nor would I ever, over anyone as a point of superiority as you are doing to me or at least trying to infer that I am to everyone else. I don't get your attack at all.

I mentioned the cost as it's pretty much exactly what Ervin was charging for a similar seminar with similar secrecy. What I was actually contrasting it with is that when I pay thousands for my education, which I have (my university education and masters degrees cost tens of thousands), I'm not expected to keep the knowledge to myself as if I'm under some sort of license agreement with the universities.

Alan Carruth tunes his instruments tops and backs to an interval to prevent the 'fighting' you speak of. He also freely shares any information he has, up to the minute, with everyone without holding back or making anyone pay him for giving back. I spent an entire month with Al four years ago and he tried to teach me everything he could during that time. There was never any mention that these were trade secrets or that I shouldn't teach them to others. I picked Al as a particularly prolific author so far as giving back to the community, but Mark Blanchard as well as loads of renowned classical builders and other lesser knowns also do as you describe. Generally the frequency of the top plate is between an F# and a G# depending on who you ask, and they try for a semitone or so of separation between the plates to prevent interference.

These are my personal biases, but two things that bother me are mentioning arcane knowledge in a forum founded on sharing and people profiteering on derivative works. By the sounds of it, both are going on here. I'd find it really hard to believe that, based on your description, the secrets you've sworn to keep profitable weren't largely based on the work people like Al Carruth, Mark Blanchard, and Carleen Hutchins were releasing to the community in writing for the last two decades.

Author:  Joe Sustaire [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Todd your posts came across to me as someone who has really learned something exciting about how to voice his guitar and thereby enable him to get the most out of his build. Which is of course what we all want. But after hearing your joy and excitement at this newfound knowledge you say sorry I can't go into details because it's not my knowledge to share. But here's the address to mecca, if you can get there. Which is all well and good, it's good to know where to go for instruction for those that are able. Just leaves me feeling a bit frustrated because I can't.

Hence my comments about some incredible music that was created on some pretty inexpensive guitars in the past. So maybe, my own guitars will be okay for this music even though I can't afford to go learn "secret" knowledge from the masters, which would enable me to build great guitars also. :D

I mean some pretty in-depth and great info from some great builders is freely and generously shared on these forums. And I have learned so much for which I am very grateful! And of course people have the right to share or not share as they wish, but Bob's "label" of your posts as "infomercial" reflected my frustration at being teased with info you aren't free to share.

Todd I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you, you have shared freely in your build threads at the luthiers community forum, and I thank you for sharing. I just get frustrated being led up to a point and then told, oh I can't tell you the secret. Personally I think that true knowledge can only be learned by getting your hands dirty and finding out what works or doesn't work for you. That's why there is no need for secret info. All you can pass on in a post or a book are tips and clues, which are really of not much value except to those that are willing to get in there and explore them hands-on, which of course is the only place real knowledge is learned.


Author:  tlguitars [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Hey Dan,
In the App store search for protune (one word) and it'll be the first thing that pops up. It's $3.99. (Still no cases, I'm waiting for 6).

Mornin Bob and Joe,

Looks like you guys have been thinking about your posts all night just like I have. :lol: I'm not trying to frustrate you Joe. Honest. Bob, you either. I'm not picking a fight and I know you guys weren't either. I could tell you both were just frustrated with my ambiguity which is obvious.

I've realized a couple of things.

The first thing is, I have given you all the answers as far as my BAD sounding guitar fix. I showed you where my back started, G#3 and I told you that I didn't touch it. Bob there's your G#. I also carved the top a little and took a pic, theres the F#. Finally I recorded the top and back after I was done so you have my ending point in full audio sound. I said that tone is maintained in brace height not width. I told the reader about tone setting verses tone affecting braces and I took pictures of the height change of all the braces I touched. I also mentioned that you need to know the weight of your bridge.

The thing to ask now is, "if the back was tuned to a G#3, what was the top tuned to that in the end with the bridge and saddle weight it was only brought down to a G and not further?" "Where should it have been tuned to when using a bridge of that weight?"

I shared all of my college work. I recorded it and posted it online for you. I just didn't say "Do this exactly." I don't agree with sharing every bit of knowledge without asking for the person your sharing it with to do a little of the work themselves, forum or no forum. I'll help you get there but I'm not going to just tell you everything. You have to learn it too. I feel like I've laid out the math problem, I've even shown you the work behind the answer it's just up to you to find the actual answer. Just like my AP Physics teacher: Question: "Mr. Krantz, is this how you do this?" Answer: "Is that the answer you got with the formula I gave you?" (no more discussion, that's all I ever got.) There's a lot of variables to just say this is the end all answer. It's too complicated for just a broad stroke of an answer. So do some work and see what you get.

Second: The work I learned was based on everything that has come before it: Guitar Builders, violin makers, mandolin makers, all the book authors; everything including the G# and F#. It was based on that work and furthered, part of the problem I realize is that I'm keeping half the story for myself as it's what my FJ story deals with and it has yet to be published. That work is even better. It's what has me manically thinking about the material I'm working with and my excitement for the work as a whole is leading this thread. But only a part of it is shown.

So yes, my comments are a little on the arcane side of things but it's because I know the story has yet to be published (the new construction side of things). I haven't been sworn to secrecy, this isn't a magic bullet that only select vampire and werewolf hunters get. I just have respect for the work I was taught, for my teachers, and for the value of my own education. If I sound like an infomercial for the Galloup School then great. Imagine that, a student who received a great education wanting to say this is where I learned how to do what I'm doing and I'm super excited about it. My mistake was thinking that this is an easy topic to converse on.

You had to pay for the education for your masters. You choose to go to school, do the work and get the degree. You work in your field and you show the results of your education through your work, but I can't just give you a masters degree without you earning it to some extent right?

The forum isn't a college, it's the water cooler at work where all the cool guys and gals who do killer work in their own respective departments come to share and hang out. We come and we talk about the cool things going on in the trussrod department, headstock angle department, the dovetailed or double top department, or the glue department. We'll even talk about the stock raw material that our company has to work with and manipulate: the good, bad, the multiple vendors and styles, the imported synthetics, all of it. We'll post threads about what's going on in our departments and how we work inside of them.

Those water coolers are a classroom at their best, yes, you can always pull something great from those that hang out there that's for sure, but they're not a college. And I would never assume that just because we spoke at the water cooler, and you have a masters degree, that now I can have that same masters degree by rights because you told me all about it.

I teach students how to build. I value the education of students who are proactive. Sorry to make you guys frustrated but the answers are there. You just have to do the work. Look at what I've given and figure it out. Start thinking about where your voicing your top and back. What's the relationship there, do you like that guitar? If so, great, but can you make the rest of your work that way? Can you go to your favorite store or friends guitar and check out where their tops and backs are now? I gave you a $4 tuner and a demo of a "fix it process" that you can get started with. Isn't that enough? Can't you decide for yourself?

If not, at least I've told you the college where you can go to get your actual education, rather then just my blathering at the water cooler.

Thanks guys, you got me thinking more about how I build and what I want to do better. That's the best part about the forums. If I frustrate you to no end, please feel free to kick me in the shins when we meet. Have great day guys.


Author:  Frei [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

This was very informative. Im hopping to get back to building in about 3 months, and its getting me reved up. There is alot of information on tuning the back and top a 'semitone' apart, I never got that far in my build, but I had tons of links on my crashed computer. So, this thread fills in some info on that.

What I would ask is, can 'I' redo my current guitar, a Tahoma DM-9, and how do I get the tone from the back, with a standard tuner? I did a bit of 'blind shaving' on the top braces, and I did'nt kill the thing, but it was by ear, not by any tone.

I imagine all those 'good sounding' sting insturments are a 'semitone' apart in the tops and backs, or whatever the measurement is.
Oh, and I have a top voicing video, and he just uses a sanding disk to knock down the braces, doesnt worry about the look either, everthing is sanded pretty square.

I can understand paying 3G's for this class and not spouting all you learned in it, and it looks like you will make that up in one guitar.

Author:  runamuck [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!


I appreciate what you've posted here. Your excitement is infectous.

Contrary to the opinions of some others here, I see nothing unethical, frustrating or manipulative with what you've said, or what you have decided not to say.


Author:  Rod True [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Todd, I really appreciate your post. I learned a ton from it and have more understanding just from what you shared. There was lots of information in there and honestly, I don't think you hid too much. Personally, I don't see the pickle that Bob or Joe have with what you posted. Who says you need to share everything anyway, certainly not me. Everyone here is free to share as little or as much as they want. You know, pretty much all information here far exceeds the cost of admission ;)

Author:  PeterDeWitt [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Thank you for the post, Todd!

Author:  Frei [ Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Dear Cedar/ BRW Model O,... You SUCK!!

Speaking of sharing, what note do you all prefer to tune the top too, if you do tune the top to a specific note?

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