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 Post subject: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:38 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Brandon
Last Name: Geer
City: Rochester
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 14624
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hey guys! I've gotten a lot of great info so far, so thanks for all of your help! I have one quick question for you, though. Please forgive my ignorance with woodworking, but what's the difference between cement/glue? I bought weldon 16 binding glue as per a recommendation from Martin. Can I use that for all of my gluing needs? Or do I need different types of glue for different jobs? What do you guys think?

Thanks again for all of your help!
-Brandon


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:24 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 1996
Location: Hummelstown PA
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Hummelstown
State: PA
Zip/Postal Code: 17036
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The weldon is for your plastic bindings only, for your first project I would recommend a yellow woodworking glue. Nothing fancy, no need to be waterproof. I prefer Titebond but Elmers or any other brand should be fine. Good luck with your build.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:02 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:42 pm
Posts: 2330
Location: Windsor Ontario Canada
First name: Fred
Last Name: Tellier
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State: Ontario
Zip/Postal Code: N8T2C6
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
+1 on yellow glue ( titebond is my preference ) for a 1st build. Get a fresh bottle and get to work, I don't use it nearly as much now as when I started out but still use it for many parts of the build.

Fred

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:38 pm
Posts: 7
First name: Brandon
Last Name: Geer
City: Rochester
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 14624
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Just bought some titebond original and enough clamps that they decided to give me their shopping basket instead of giving me bags to put the clamps in. I think I might actually be about ready to move on to the next step in my build now!

Thanks for all your help!


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:42 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:35 pm
Posts: 2561
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I love clamps. I have a hundred of those wooden cam clamps, I ordered two batches of 50.

I build on a workboard and I use them to glue the ribs down to the soundboard, then the back down to the ribs.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:33 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:02 am
Posts: 10
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Poague
City: Belo Horizontes
State: <inas Gerais
Zip/Postal Code: 31365500
Country: Brazil
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Greetings from Brazil,
I am from USA but been living here 24 years. Titebond has finally arrived here ...I been using the local yellow glue for last 12 years. The question I post to all you luthieres with more experinece: which titebond do you prefer? Since I have a choice of 1,11,or 111? original,ultimate, premium??? or even extended??..norun/drip/fastsetting ?? The last two are not here yet but since doing some research thought I might as well ask. What about titebond wood filler??

Thanks for input...I would buy one of each and try them all but figure it´s more economical to buy bigger quantity of one type and later try another....which is the winner??Love the forum and all you luthiers`input...this is the place to be to get all the answers. Dennis, AxeTech Instruments, Belo Horizonte


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 Post subject: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5138
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
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Hi Dennis, Titebond 1 is preferred for guitar work over their other products.

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"Music is what feelings sound like"


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:05 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:02 am
Posts: 10
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Poague
City: Belo Horizontes
State: <inas Gerais
Zip/Postal Code: 31365500
Country: Brazil
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Thanks Steve..titebond 1 is tried and true..I am a believer..gonna buy me a liter or two...love the OLF and all you kool
luthiers...I am gonna have to put up some pics and get my profile up soon. Muito obrigado..sunshine from Brazil


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:55 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:39 pm
Posts: 3
City: St. Louis
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Remember these glues have a shelf life. Better to buy quantities you'll consume within 6-12 months. Old glue can be kept for non-guitar use.

David


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:40 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 297
First name: Hugh
Last Name: Evans
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Hands down Titebond Extend Original is my favorite general purpose wood glue for luthiery. When used in conjunction with sizing I've personally achieved open assembly times in excess of 25 minutes. It also contains fillers than enhance its thermal resistance and therefore its resistance to creep as well. Unless you are in a production environment and need extremely rapid processes, Titebond Extend has nothing but advantages. Titebond Supreme is another nice product if you want the performance benefits of Extend and the short assembly time of Original... Although it still offers longer closed assembly time, which allows for final adjustments prior to final clamping. All of these adhesives will steam apart for maintenance without difficulty as well. Again, Titebond Extend is without question my top recommendation.

Unless you are using RF in your process or have a special application, there are no advantages to using Titebond II. Not to mention it can be more of a pain to steam apart. Under no circumstances do I ever recommend Titebond III for use in a musical instrument. TB III should really be called Titebond Cutting Board & Wooden Countertop, as these are among the only truly proper uses for it. It's also a great product for laminating skateboard decks as it is a close relative of Multibond SK-8, which is an industrial product from Franklin targeted specifically at the skateboard industry.

PS- With respect to shelf life, Titebond Original and Extend can last for well over a decade if stored properly. While replacing it at least once every year is by no means harmful, as long as the product flows and spreads normally it will continue to perform as well as fresh product because they do not degrade chemically over time... Instead they just lose moisture, which can be remedied by adding small amounts of water. A little goes a very long way: 5% addition of water will decrease the viscosity, thickness, by half while a 10% addition will reduce it by 75%. In both cases there is no appreciable impact on strength at these dilution levels. Optimal storage conditions are generally similar to a basement, where temperature is relatively constant between 60°F and 70°F at all times with humidity around 50%. The oldest bottle of Titebond Original I ever tested was 19 years old. After tapping it on the corner of a desk for a few minutes to restore its consistency, the product worked as well as if it had just come off the production line. This is true for all non ANSI/HPVA Type I or Type II PVA/resin-modified PVA/aliphatic resin adhesives.


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Koa
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:37 am
Posts: 590
Location: United States
First name: Mike
City: Fishtown
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I would stick to original Titebond and stay away from any Elmers wood glues. I had no problem with basic Elmers wood glue in the past but they have changed the formula and now claim it's stronger. I'm always weary of new formulas. Titebond originals is time proven....Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:50 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:24 pm
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First name: EddieLee
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For my first build I used Fish Glue for most things. The long open time really saved me a few times. It also cleans up easily with warm water. My guitar came out great.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:17 am
Posts: 271
First name: Linus
City: Brooklyn
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 11215
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Why recommend titebond over fish glue? I would think that fish glue gives the same benefits of titebond (easy cleanup and long open time) but dries more crystaline than titebond so it theoretically should sound better???


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:14 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:06 am
Posts: 508
First name: Greg
Last Name: B
City: Los Angeles
State: California
Titebond is readily available and is an excellent adhesive. I agree that the beginner should stick with it ( :roll: ) for the first couple of instruments before trying more exotic things. The long open time is very useful when you are doing stuff for the first time. Titebond Extend seems like an interesting product. I don't see it for sale much.

There have been reports of fish glue spontaneously releasing in hot humid weather. I have no experience with fish glue myself, but this is enough to scare me. I use HHG mostly these days.

Regular Titebond actually dries quite hard if it is fresh. The main disadvantage is that it will creep in high heat, like in the trunk of your car in summer. It also tends to slip around instead of stick when you are trying to clamp it.


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Walnut
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Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:06 pm
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First name: John
Last Name: McQueen
City: Marysville
State: Ohio
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
hello all! i'm new to the forum! on the glue, i am currently using hot hide glue. open time is short compared to titebond, but the rock hard set no doubt produces better sound transference. definitely recommend when bracing tops.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Titebond I.
Not II or III.

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Wah-wah-wah-wah
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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 17
First name: kevin
Last Name: conlon
City: sligo
State: ireland
Zip/Postal Code: slig
Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I need advise regarding a headstock repair I am doing for someone. Unfortunately i found that he had attempted a repair himself previously by pumping Superglue into the cracked headstock so now i have to contend with that. The headstock is hanging on by the headplate and is not exactly in 2 pieces so theres a gap of about an inch to get glue into. But the hardest part would be getting most of the superglue out first before i could attempt to glue it again. Therefore I think that Epoxy is the only answer as i cant imagine titebond actually bonding the wood that's been already super glued? Can anyone comment on that ?.
Also, can anyone suggest the best Epoxy available in the Uk or Europe that would be strong enough. What do builders in the USA use as their epoxy glue for headstock repair ?

Thanks guys
Rusty


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:55 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:28 pm
Posts: 297
First name: Hugh
Last Name: Evans
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The first question to ask is: how much CA remains in the attired repair? Was it originally a complete break? How well do the bonding surfaces close up? If it started as a full break consider using acetone to separate the two halves again as it will reverse the CA. Then proceed with cleaning up as much residual adhesive and use either a good PVA or hot hide glue. Epoxy could work, but clean bonding surfaces are the first step to a lasting joint. Pictures would be very helpful.

It will be a more involved repair by nature of correcting a failed attempt... But at least it's CA as opposed to epoxy or polyurethane. On most repairs I prefer to use adhesives that someone in the future can rework if necessary (the intent is to make a permanent repair, but you never know what could happen down the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:48 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:28 pm
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First name: Hugh
Last Name: Evans
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Thanks Filippo, I meant to mention that in my post. If no repair attempts have been made with CA to start off with there would be no special prep-work... But the best approach now could be to finish breaking it off so that the residual CA can be cleaned off thoroughly while retaining all of the wood as it was following the break (because they almost always have a perfect fit and will make for a nearly invisible repair.)

One other point I forgot to mention: If you are planning to use PVA such as Titebond Original or Extend, I always recommend diluting it with a 5% to 10% addition of water which will result in 50% and 75% decreases in viscosity without changing final bond strength. Wetting both bonding surfaces with water and a small brush and allowing it to soak in for a few minutes is also not a bad idea. My reasons for these changes are that adding water to the interface will slow down the drying process of the adhesive ever so slightly and provide additional open and closed assembly time. The diluted adhesive will further extend assembly time and allow you to ensure the fit is absolutely perfect before really torquing down the clamps. Since the adhesive is significantly thinner it will get into all of the little nooks and crannies commonly found in a headstock break, and will then proceed to squeeze out more readily than undiluted adhesive. Not only does this have the cosmetic advantage of forming a super-thin glueline: thin gluelines are also much stronger than thicker ones.

The only downside I see, potentially depending on the finish type, is that it could require more finish repair. If it's a nitro finish you can at least tape off the finish and try to clean off the CA using acetone and a soft toothbrush. If you luck out you might get away with some drop-filling. If it's polyurethane or polyester the acetone won't do much too it, but the crack will be more visible unless you strip the whole thing down and refinish while you're at it.

Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 17
First name: kevin
Last Name: conlon
City: sligo
State: ireland
Zip/Postal Code: slig
Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Finally figured how to add a pic here---This is a pic before i removed everything in preparation for gluing it up.
I did my best to remove as much ca as possible and put liberal amounts of acetone in there and brushed it all out as best i could.

So tomorrow its decision time and i'm leaning towards the strong Epoxy for some reason but that could change.


Thanks for all the tips here guys
Rusty


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:20 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:02 am
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First name: kevin
Last Name: conlon
City: sligo
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Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Finally went for the Devcon 2 part epoxy rated at 2500 psi. Cleaned out as much of the old superglue as I could without separating the headstock completely and used lots of acetone to clean it all out. Did the repair by using Cauls, Clamps and also a ratchet strap strung from headstock to the strap button and that gave a really tight joint. Left it 24 hours--instructions say 8 hours cure time-- and everything looked rosy. Strung it up and played really nice--until I noticed that the crack at the back of the neck had opened slightly again--The repair had failed !!! Cant believe it as I was so careful. Mixed the epoxy perfectly, clamped it all tight etc etc.. Not happy !!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Koa
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:08 am
Posts: 1344
Location: Raleigh, NC
First name: Steve
Last Name: Sollod
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Nobody has mentioned LMI Instrument Makers Glue... I like it!

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Mahogany
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Posts: 76
Location: Buford, GA.
First name: Dean
Last Name: Miller
City: Buford
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30518
Country: US
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
What do you all think of the Titebond Liquid Hideglue? Haven't seen any threads on any boards, anywhere, mentioning it much less discussing using it.

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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:51 pm 
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Koa
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Posts: 523
Location: Shefford, Québec
First name: Tim
Last Name: Mullin
City: Shefford
State: QC
Zip/Postal Code: J2M 1R5
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
AR15DCM wrote:
What do you all think of the Titebond Liquid Hideglue? Haven't seen any threads on any boards, anywhere, mentioning it much less discussing using it.

Try using the search function for "liquid hide glue" -- you should find a few posts of interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Types of glue to use
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:39 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:02 am
Posts: 17
First name: kevin
Last Name: conlon
City: sligo
State: ireland
Zip/Postal Code: slig
Country: Ireland
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
AR15DCM wrote:
What do you all think of the Titebond Liquid Hideglue? Haven't seen any threads on any boards, anywhere, mentioning it much less discussing using it.



I tried liquid hide glue and would not be recommending it. You would be better off with standard hide glue and what I do is to use a little baby bottle warmer available for a few quid, and stick a thermometer to keep a check on the temperature. I just mix the hide glue in a jam jar with a hole in the lid for the thermometer, plug in the bottle warmer and have it quarter full of water and pop the jar into it with the thermometer sticking out through the hole in the lid. It flows much easier than the bottled glue and sets rock hard afterwards. I had heard many horror stories on the bottled hide glue but tried it regardless. I was not impressed and went back to the old way of doing things
Hope that helps
Rusty


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