Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:35 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:29 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
I have a les paul junior kit I'm putting together made of Black Limba (korina) wood. The wood is kind of a mustard yellow/greyish color. I'm hoping to do kind of a warm brown sunburst like the picture I've attached. Any tips on taking the actual color of the wood into consideration when choosing colors? Obviously testing on scrap is a big first step, but I don't have any scrap wood like this lying around I bought the kit online. (I attached a picture of my body too.)


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:14 pm
Posts: 236
Location: Creedmoor, NC
First name: Tim
Last Name: Benware
City: Creedmoor
State: NC
Zip/Postal Code: 27522
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
If you wet the wood with some Naptha it will approximate the color under clear finish.

_________________
"I've been had again"
Tim Benware
Creedmoor, NC



These users thanked the author Ben-Had for the post: Conor_Searl (Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:27 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:54 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
IMHO you will lose most of the beautiful contrast in that piece of Limba with a dark burst like the picture. But if I was going to do it I would make the burst as dark as possible so as the center which is the darker section of the wood appears lighter.....

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:04 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1201
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Brian could pull off a dark burst on that and make it look good, I know I couldn't. Since the wood has lovely contrast I would finish it to take advantage of the natural colors. Save the edge burst for something else.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:39 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
I ended up dying this body blue, which looks great and maintains the contrast of the grain.

But I've got spots in the open parts of the grain that aren't taking the dye/stain. I did a bunch of testing on other open grained wood scraps (mahogany and ash, I didn't have any scrap limba and neither did the local wood store) I had lying around and they didn't seem to be quite as obvious as this. I filled the pores first with transparent water-based pore filler which seemed to help on the scraps and it took the color well, then proceeded to dye the body. I've got a nice color and it looks pretty even but some of those pores are still nice and bright and not blue. Should I use some more pore filler, a few more coats of dye, or will it be mostly invisible after clear coating?


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 3644
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
MORE PIX!

_________________
Stop saying "How stupid can you get?" Too many people are taking it as a challenge!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:10 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
From a distance its not so noticeable. But up close they are pretty pronounced.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:11 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
In case it matters, I mixed my dye with water rather than alcohol.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:28 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:17 am
Posts: 717
Location: United States
I’d spray a couple coats of black lacquer on it and pore will with pure white, finish with flat clear. That woods begging to be dog hair!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:17 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
Glen H wrote:
I’d spray a couple coats of black lacquer on it and pore will with pure white, finish with flat clear. That woods begging to be dog hair!


Haha, now that you mention it...


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:47 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Conor_Searl wrote:
From a distance its not so noticeable. But up close they are pretty pronounced.



What we see here is "white pores" a few here and there are usually air bubbles trapped in the pores here and there. More a problem with thicker stains than dyes but really dry porous wood can do it with a dye as well.

But the cause here was dust left in the pores. Sanding dust gets packed in them, especially if you prep sand to fine or push your abrasives too hard..... wiping with solvent after sanding can really pack dust down in them too. Bottom line the surface was not completely clean before you started.

As an aside, if you had simply started spraying a finish on that same surface you would not have seen the dust immediatly but problems would be lurking down the road. most likely a peeling or popping finish.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:19 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
But the cause here was dust left in the pores. Sanding dust gets packed in them, especially if you prep sand to fine or push your abrasives too hard..... wiping with solvent after sanding can really pack dust down in them too. Bottom line the surface was not completely clean before you started.


Sounds like you nailed it Brian. I did a lot of sanding, and ended up at 320 and I'd say there were moments of vigour... I also wiped the wood down regularly with naptha after sanding. I did blow it our with air but obviously not thoroughly enough.

Any suggestions for fixing it at this point? If I sand it back a bit, blow it out as thoroughly as possible, and fill the pores again does that sound like it should work? The lucky thing is I'm not trying to nail an exact color so I'm not too stressed about ending up too dark or light with the blue.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:29 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
If you can get the pores cleaned out a re-application of dye followed by an imediate wipedown of whatever solvent is used for the dye should take care of it.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/



These users thanked the author B. Howard for the post: Conor_Searl (Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:33 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:42 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1201
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
If you can get the pores cleaned out a re-application of dye followed by an imediate wipedown of whatever solvent is used for the dye should take care of it.


So if we were starting from scratch, Brian, what would be the sequence and product to get a smooth finish with this color. Ie, sand to what grit, clean the pores how, fill the pores with what, sand again,...... I don't know what final finish Conor is going to put on it, lets say something reasonable like lacquer.

Almost every time build with mahogany I have to fill pores and to stain it to match something else. Pores may not be as bad as these but they are still present.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
If you can get the pores cleaned out a re-application of dye followed by an immediate wipe down of whatever solvent is used for the dye should take care of it.


I don't doubt you at all Brian, just trying to get my head around this. I'm confused as to why the wood dust won't take color the way the wood does? At this point the only thing to touch the body has been sandpaper, water, naptha, pore filler and blue dye mixed with water.

Also it really looks like there is nothing in the open part of the grain. I used a magnifying glass and the corner of a razor blade and traced some of the open grain and nothing seemed to come out except blue pore filler when I'd get to colored spots. Also compressed air doesn't seem to do much at this point. Is it too late?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:20 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Conor_Searl wrote:
B. Howard wrote:
If you can get the pores cleaned out a re-application of dye followed by an immediate wipe down of whatever solvent is used for the dye should take care of it.


I don't doubt you at all Brian, just trying to get my head around this. I'm confused as to why the wood dust won't take color the way the wood does? At this point the only thing to touch the body has been sandpaper, water, naptha, pore filler and blue dye mixed with water.

Also it really looks like there is nothing in the open part of the grain. I used a magnifying glass and the corner of a razor blade and traced some of the open grain and nothing seemed to come out except blue pore filler when I'd get to colored spots. Also compressed air doesn't seem to do much at this point. Is it too late?


The dust likely did take the color, just in the top few microns and then promptly flaked off leaving fresh dust to be seen. It cannot stay long term as there are zero binders in a dye. Nothing to hold the dust together.....

The pores may actually be cleaned out now. At least most of them.... And remember when looking with a glass that wood dust from sanding is the exact same wood you sanded so it blends in really well! To be sure they are cleaned out use a fine stiff plastic brush and compressed air.

FWIW water is one of the things wood was made from and it will cause sanding dust to pack tighter than most solvents, also water based dye doesn't have the penetration that an alcohol based one does.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/



These users thanked the author B. Howard for the post: Conor_Searl (Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:04 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:42 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2124
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Freeman wrote:
B. Howard wrote:
If you can get the pores cleaned out a re-application of dye followed by an imediate wipedown of whatever solvent is used for the dye should take care of it.


So if we were starting from scratch, Brian, what would be the sequence and product to get a smooth finish with this color. Ie, sand to what grit, clean the pores how, fill the pores with what, sand again,...... I don't know what final finish Conor is going to put on it, lets say something reasonable like lacquer.

Almost every time build with mahogany I have to fill pores and to stain it to match something else. Pores may not be as bad as these but they are still present.


some of this depends on the actual species of wood and the exact finish layers we need to put down to get the desired results. Not sure what finish we are currently going for here in a finished product as I would not have done a complete highlight stain to run the burst in the OP.

So lets talk about you and mahogany and getting a nice even dyed color on it. The type of pore filler you use will determine some of the other steps and how they are done.

First up is prep sanding. If you are using old fashioned paste filler sand to 150 and apply enough coats of material to fill pores. If you are using something clear like UV gel you will not apply it yet, sand and move directly to the next stage.

Sand out for dye application. Sand at no finer than 220 (I generally stop at 180 on mahogany...). Sand too fine and the finish will not adhere properly. Quality of sanding is important! Must be even and I recommend absolute last sanding passes be done with a cork block by hand in the grain direction. Clean up after every sanding operation is critical for color and adhesion. DO NOT WIPE WITH SOLVENT! use compressed air and a brush (softly so as not to scratch the prepped wood). A tack cloth is also very helpful, just use it lightly so you do not transfer the tacky stuff to the raw wood.

Apply stain or dye as needed and seal. If you used paste filler you will then be ready for spray coats. If using UV or other clear filler apply it and sand back & seal accordingly.

That is very basic and sort of universal. Some finishes require a few different dye and sand back operations to create highlights etc.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.



http://www.brianhowardguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Howard-G ... 3702413493
http://howardguitars.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:24 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:09 pm
Posts: 179
First name: Conor
Last Name: Searl
City: Duncan
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V9L 2E5
Country: Canada
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
The pores may actually be cleaned out now. At least most of them.... And remember when looking with a glass that wood dust from sanding is the exact same wood you sanded so it blends in really well! To be sure they are cleaned out use a fine stiff plastic brush and compressed air.

FWIW water is one of the things wood was made from and it will cause sanding dust to pack tighter than most solvents, also water based dye doesn't have the penetration that an alcohol based one does.



Yeah that makes sense. I used my compressor yesterday and blew it out slowly and thoroughly and reapplied the dye and ended up with the same thing, I'm going to try next with the brush (an old toothbrush?) as well as the compressor. But I'm wondering about your comment on penetration in water-based dye vs alcohol based dye. Does it seem possible that because I'm using a water based dye the solution is just glossing over (for lack of a better term) some of the deeper pores or that there are denser spots in some of the pores that won't take the dye?

Maybe I need to do a second application of pore filler because it didn't get into those deep spots? At this point if none of this works I'm leaning toward tinting some clear lacquer blue and laying that down before applying the clear coats.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:09 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 1201
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks Brian. I printed that little section and stuck it in my finishing book. I was wondering about using tack cloths - I do but I didn't know if the tacky stuff was a problem. I also vacuum after sanding and use compressed air right before spraying - no solvents.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com