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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:55 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:44 am
Posts: 17
Hello all, firstly I apologize if this post gets a little long! I've been meaning to do a write up and propose some questions to you all for a while.

I recently finished constructing my first guitar, having had no experience in general wood working or building guitars. I opted for a telecaster style kit guitar (it cost around £80 so nothing too expensive). I did a fair bit of reading about kit guitars, and it seems they are pretty cheap and poorly done, but with some time and attention you can get something pretty good out of them.

I also read that the pickups are also pretty nasty, so my first step was to buy a neck pickup which is from a year 2000 Fender MIM Telecaster, and a bridge pickup which was new from Tonerider (it had pretty good reviews and was reasonably priced).

I decided (further to another one of my posts) to stain the wood royal blue, and then coat it with several layers of oil. The maple neck I also treated with Tru-oil, applying around 8 or so layers to get a glossy durable finish.

Upon completing it, I noticed why these kits are so cheap. The sound was great (due to the pickups) but the intonation and feel in general is pretty average. I managed to fix the tuning issues by adjusting the saddles, and even adjusted the truss rod slightly to lower the action which was pretty high. The action is still a little high, but it's similar to my Fender strat that I also have. I'm also at a point where if I lower the action too much I end up with some fret buzz so I'm at a half way point between the two. Not only have I never built a guitar before, but I've never set one up, so all the while I was making the small adjustments I was learning and taking it all in too.

The problems continue however, and I have a bit of a buzz when I'm not touching anything/grounding it with my hand. If I understand correctly this means that it's not grounded properly, but I was pretty careful with everything being grounded (the pickups, the bridge, output jack etc.) so I've ordered some copper shielding to line the cavities to see if this will help with the static.

Here's a photo of her - you may say "that's not a telecaster headstock!" but I personally find them a little ugly, so decided to copy one I liked the look of on Google and just scribble half my signature on it.

Image

Now, here are a few questions I have for you all!

1. I've looked around at courses on how to set up a guitar, and while there are none in my local area, there is a guitar tech who I have contacted and is happy to set the guitar up and go through it all with me while he does it (I've done as much as I can but wondering if the frets may need leveling or something more advance). Do you think this is a good idea and would be worth it? I feel as though there is only so much you can learn from reading online or watching videos.

2. What did you do with your first guitar you built? I'd like to build another one, but my better half has a strict "one in one out" policy on guitars.

3. If I were to build another, I was thinking of buying a pre-made neck, then building the body from a block of wood (carving it myself and adding the cavities etc.) as to me the neck seems the most intricate/complicated part. Would this be a good 'next level up'?

4. If I decided to sell it (once it plays nicely and is set up properly) what approach should I have? Sell it dirt cheap/give it to charity/sell it as parts? I guess I don't see why anyone would want to buy a guitar from someone that has never built one before and is very far away from being a 'master luthier'.

Look forward to hearing from you, and thanks for reading!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:00 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:17 am
Posts: 381
First name: Michael
State: AR
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hi,
I'll give my opinion/answers based on the assumptions that you are a guitarist and are working towards building a guitar rather than assembling one.


1. I've looked around at courses on how to set up a guitar, and while there are none in my local area, there is a guitar tech who I have contacted and is happy to set the guitar up and go through it all with me while he does it (I've done as much as I can but wondering if the frets may need leveling or something more advance). Do you think this is a good idea and would be worth it? I feel as though there is only so much you can learn from reading online or watching videos.

Learning how to build a neck was the most important task before I started building. Being a guitarist for many years I felt I had a very good grasp on "feel" and factors that determined.
Knowing the steps to construct a neck, specifically; nut construction and setting the nut action, fretboard radius, scale length, fret size and installing (including cutting slots), leveling, crowning and dressing frets, are all steps that one needs to address. Each step is critical.
It's your choice to learn how to carve the neck contour, install truss rods and tend to each of the areas or simply purchase a neck.
I studied each step along with different methods to achieve them- I wanted to make the best guess at purchasing the right tools for the methods I would attempt- until I could build a neck "in my head".

I agree with you "there is only so much one can learn...reading and videos" but in my experience there was/is enough information available and the rest of the learning curve is gained by hands on.

2. What did you do with your first guitar you built? I'd like to build another one, but my better half has a strict "one in one out" policy on guitars.

It is in a wall display case in my shop. I built it- it is not a guitar that I pieced together from parts.

3. If I were to build another, I was thinking of buying a pre-made neck, then building the body from a block of wood (carving it myself and adding the cavities etc.) as to me the neck seems the most intricate/complicated part. Would this be a good 'next level up'?

No offense intended but I have never understood why some say "build" when they've done nothing more than "assembled". Very different in my way of thinking and also misleading. Oh well.
I agree with you that the neck is the most intricate/complicated part. That is exactly why it was my main area of focus and why my first guitar is most excellent.
I can take a great neck and bad body and build a great electric guitar. I can not take a bad neck, great body and build a great guitar.

4. If I decided to sell it (once it plays nicely and is set up properly) what approach should I have? Sell it dirt cheap/give it to charity/sell it as parts? I guess I don't see why anyone would want to buy a guitar from someone that has never built one before and is very far away from being a 'master luthier'.

I have the first guitar my folks bought for me. A 1963 Harmony. Whether one sells or keeps their material objects is of no concern of mine and nothing I would offer advice about.


So...I guess if I recommend it will be; focus on building necks and keep that body so you'll have something to attach the necks to. After all; building good nuts and setting the nut action is an art all in itself.

Good luck and most of all...be safe. Hope some of my BS helps.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:27 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:44 am
Posts: 17
Thanks for the reply Sandywood. Sorry, I suppose it is more assembling a kit than building one from scratch!

The neck does sound a pretty daunting task, which is why I suppose I'm thinking more of getting confident in building a body for a pre-made neck. To get more experience and understanding on the string length, bridge positioning, pickups, wiring etc. first before I tackle the whole neck construction!

I suppose I could - like you say - build a neck from scratch and install it on this guitar as a test run or practice. Maybe then replace the body too! If you replace the neck and the body of a guitar is it still the same guitar? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:53 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:17 am
Posts: 381
First name: Michael
State: AR
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
You're welcome.

I'm not saying what I did or how I thought about it is right for you. Just points for your consideration.

The neck was of such importance to me, for my learning process, my first was a neck-through. To complete the body for an electric seemed so...easy. I thought at least a neck-through may be more of a challenge - adding body wings opposed to cutting out a body shape. I listened a lot to Carl Thompson for inspiration.

I thought then and do still that the prep work and finish would be the hardest part for me. Whether it be painted wood or left clear.

Not being into electronics/electricity in general I didn't have much concern about following wiring diagrams...which really is not that hard nor interesting then or now - but I did find building pickups interesting so added that and now enjoy winding and having my pups on what I build.

" If you replace the neck and the body of a guitar is it still the same guitar? :lol:" I can understand why you'd like to know that answer...my wife doesn't question my guitar world so I don't need an answer to it. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:19 pm 
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Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 1161
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I have a dozen guitars of my own making at my house. A dozen more peppered throughout my extended family. "One in, one out?" That is just plain nuts!!! Tell your wife the same goes for shoes, see if she changes her tune.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:22 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 2124
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Isherwoodc, first let me congratulate you on your first guitar. Looks good and sounds like its got the potential of playing OK. Before I try to comment on some of your questions I'm going to go back to square one and define a couple of terms.

First is what I call DESIGN - thats where it starts. Basically that is the general type of guitar I'm going to make and some specifications that I choose pretty much at the start of the project - scale length, neck width at nut and some other place (usually bridge), the fretboard radius. I'll decide on the neck connection and probably pick the bridge I want to use. Everything else after that becomes DETAILS (wood, pickups, finish, yadda yadda)

Next is GEOMETRY - very simply that assure that the neck and bridge will work together allow the ACTION to be set reasonably. Geometry varies from guitar to guitar but basically it says that I will have enough adjustment in the saddles to allow me to make the thing playable. Included in this is the angle of the neck to the body (zero, positive or even possibly a negative angle), the amount the neck stands proud of the body and takes into account that the f/b radius needs to be duplicated at the saddles.

Next are the FRETS. I'm anal about frets - if they aren't perfect there is no point in going on. High frets, low frets, worn frets - any problem with frets will mean compromises in the playability.

Last is the ACTION - that is the relationship of each string to each fret so it will play easily and comfortably with minimum or no buzzing for my style of play. In my book action consists of things that can be changed after the guitar is built - relief, height of strings at several points on the neck (nut and 12th fret), and intonation compensation. While not really a part of action, I include adjusting the height of the pickups here.

I'm a hobby builder and repair person and when a guitar comes into my shop before I do anything else I measure EVERYTHING and write it all down. I have a little spreadsheet that has boxes for neck angle and fret condition and whether (and where) there are buzzes, neck relief, nut and 12th fret string clearances, amount of compensation (and how much the intonation is off). I've even got boxes for string gauges (you'd be surprised how many people don't know whats on their guitar).

It takes me all of 5 or so minutes to measure and fill this stuff out. I know exactly what has to be done and the order, since some things affect others. The spreadsheet also has little boxes for target values (varies with guitar and player) and when its all done, for the final measurements. My point is that before I ever take the string off or turn the truss rod or anything else I have a plan. (If you wanted to PM me your e-mail addy I could send you the spreadsheet).

If I were in your shoes, I would use this guitar and experience to study and learn each of these items. Personally I would stop right now and do the measurements - write everything down. I would spend some time analyzing the geometry - does the neck angle allow you enough adjustment of the saddles to go from the lowest action you'll ever want to the highest (for each string). I know that the lowest I would ever want to go is with the strings sitting on the fretboard - therefore the neck angle should allow that

Image

Thats a ToM bridge, different from your but the idea is the same. The little wood blocks simulate the posts that it mounts on. What I am doing is setting the very lowest adjustment at the fret plane. Actually I know that when its strung up there will be a little relief plus the nut slots will raise the action a hair.

The other thing you want to insure is that you can adjust the saddles as high as you ever want them. Lastly, you'll want to remember that as the guitar ages the action will go up, you may want to fudge a little to know you can compensate.

OK, get the geometry right - you may have to shim the neck pocket (one of Leo's genius's) and go on to the frets. Adjust the f/b dead flat (take all the relief out) and level the frets. There are lots of tutorials and methods - your goal is first that they be perfectly level and second that they have a reasonable shape (rounded crown).

Now you can put strings on it, adjust the saddles so you have some clearance and do the setup. The steps are pretty much as follows - some adjustments affect others, some do not. Measure and adjust the relief - different techs have different values that they shoot for but basically you want some but not too much (LOL). I shoot for 0.004 or so with pretty perfect frets, I think anything over 0.010 is too much. Remember that adjusting the truss rod will change both the relief and the action - its purpose is relief. Once the relief is set I like to do the nut slots but I approach the final settings slowly. I use measurements (somewhere around 0.014 on the high E to maybe 0.018 on the low) but I also want to be sure that as I fret at the 3rd fret there is clearance at the first. Go slowly, its hard to make the slot less deep.

Next is the action over the fretboard - usually measured at the 12th fret. Again, you will find all kinds of numbers measure yours, lower it a little, see how it feels. For many guitars I find that somewhere around 0.060 on the high E and 0.090 on the low, with each string in between getting a little higher, works pretty well. Last I check the intonation of each string - play the 12th fret harmonic (which should be one octave higher than the open string), fret it at 12 and compare the note. You can do it by ear but I prefer a good tuner. If the fretted note is sharp, move the saddle away from the nut a bit, check again. Adjusting the intonation should not affect the other setup parameters, changing some of them may affect intonation.

Now just play every fret on every string listening for any buzzes or other nasty sounds. See if the action feels right to you up and down the f/b - if not try to figure out why. At this point I go back to the spreadsheet and write down everything once again, date it and put it in the case with the guitar - the owner has a very good record of what was done and how the guitar was returned.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:42 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:46 pm
Posts: 2124
First name: Freeman
Last Name: Keller
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Second part of your question - what have I done with my first guitar and where should you go from here.

My first guitar was a kit acoustic built ten years ago. Kit acoustics are a bit different from most kit electrics - basically you get to build the guitar but a few operations that either take special tools or that you can really screw up are done for you (thicknessing the top and back, bending the sides, rough shaping the neck and bridge, mitering the fretboard). But you get to have all the fun of putting the parts together, worrying about the neck geometry, binding and finishing, doing the step.

I took my time, agonized over a lot of details big and small, would certainly change a few things, but in spite of my best efforts, it came out pretty darn good and its still my daily player. I built a couple more kit acoustics, then gradually started doing more of the work myself - I bought a side bender and started shaping my own necks. A few years ago I built my first electric - a Les Paul clone - from scratch using Melvyn Hicock's book and a good set of LP plans. Again, I agonized over the geometry and setting the neck and all that stuff, once again it came out pretty good and its my go to electric.

My humble suggestions for you to consider - first, get Melvyn Hiscock's book (I recommend it to everyone, I'm sure I already did for you). Read the chapter about designing your guitar - that deals with both design and geometry. Get a set of plans for whatever you want to build (good and bad ones available on the internet) and study the geometry - plan view and side view.

As I've mentioned, I haven't been very impressed with the electric kits that I've seen (but its a pretty small sample). Lots of people assemble "parts casters" - they buy a body and a neck, assemble them, do some sort of finish, buy all the hard ware and put that together. The only real difference from the kit is that you are selecting each part. Because Fender stuff is very standardize almost any good neck will work with almost any good body, but I think its best to buy from one source. Two that I know of are Steward McDonald (a forum sponsor) and Warmout.

Next is to decide to bite the bullet and actually build the guitar. Lets face it, making a neck from scratch is daunting and somewhat difficult. It is also very rewarding. Making the body is a lot more straightforward (until you decide to make a carved top like a Lester) but still requires some tools, templates.

Whatever you do, the forum is here to help and don't be afraid to ask. Good luck, let us know how its going - most of us have faced whatever it is that you are facing.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 8:35 pm
Posts: 2658
Location: Austin, Texas
First name: Dan
Last Name: Smith
City: Round Rock
State: TX
Zip/Postal Code: 78681
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I've made 20 and have given away 18.
I really only need a few to pick on.
I'm sure you better half could think of some family members who would be thrilled to have one.
This strategy has worked well for me.
My wife takes me to Woodcraft and picks out materials.
Sometimes I have to set a limit on the stuff she wants to buy.

Great looking first build!
The headstock is very nice!

Once you figure out the steps to carve a neck, it's not very difficult.
For a first neck, I'd use Genuine Mahogany. It cuts and sands quickly.

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