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| Questions about ES335 Center block http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10123&t=56197 |
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| Author: | retnev [ Mon Jan 08, 2024 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Questions about ES335 Center block |
Anyone has a drawing of which points the centerblock attaches to the soundboard ? Obviously at the tail and the neck joint, and bridge posts, but what else ? I searched online but detailed drawings of the centerblock and how it attaches is about unobtanium. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
It's contoured at the factory to attach fully to the soundboard (which is 3 plies of wood, bent to shape). |
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| Author: | retnev [ Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Thank you for the reply. So the centreblock is completely attached to the soundboard/top according to you. The back I presume is free and does not contact the centerblock except at the neckjoint and the tail ? Is that correct ? |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
No. Why would they make it free? It's a SEMI-acoustic. |
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| Author: | retnev [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Chris Pile wrote: No. Why would they make it free? It's a SEMI-acoustic. There are equal reasons for and against. You will only know if you look. That is why I ask. With the center block it is not an acoustic anymore anyway and already semi-acoustic. So, you say that the block is contoured on both sides to have full contact with both the top and the back ? I saw a photo of the top having 6 or so small braces at the bridge, the purpose of which I am not sure. Dont know if the entire top is in contact with the center block if there are braces between the centerblock and the top. I will see if I can find the photo again. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
I'm sorry, yes - both sides are contoured and glued to the front and back plates. I've seen several videos of Gibson factory tours that showed them making the center block. There are strips of spruce (?) on the top and back of the center block, and pockets are routed to allow wiring to pass through. It looks to be a pretty involved process with specific tooling for gluing the whole thing together. It's hard to explain this way. If I could find the video it would all be clear. |
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| Author: | Smylight [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Chris Pile wrote: I'm sorry, yes - both sides are contoured and glued to the front and back plates. I've seen several videos of Gibson factory tours that showed them making the center block. There are strips of spruce (?) on the top and back of the center block, and pockets are routed to allow wiring to pass through. It looks to be a pretty involved process with specific tooling for gluing the whole thing together. It's hard to explain this way. If I could find the video it would all be clear. Chris is right, I saw this video somewhere, too. I remember a friend took the factory tour a few years back and his pics made it clear both front and back are glue on the center block. IIRC, In the early years the block ran full-length from neck to tail block, then later Gibson shortened it. I seem to remember it was a cost-cutting move around the time they went from the stop to the trapeze as they felt it was no longer needed full-length. They eventually relented and went back to full-length. Pierre Guitares Torvisse |
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| Author: | Smylight [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Here it is! The 335 bit starts at around 7:10. https://youtu.be/zEiiDa0twNM?si=xdiOzzuVhfOcGNjV Pierre Guitares Torvisse |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
When I built mine I did the kerfed top and bottom blocks that fit between the plates and the center block itself (there is no air space) Attachment: IMG_3219-1.jpg Attachment: IMG_3236-1.jpg I made the kerfed pieces on a table saw, then shaped them with a little router sled, the kerfing give them the little bit of side to side flexibility to match the curve of the plate/ Attachment: IMG_3211-1.jpg I also did one guitar with a short block and simply shaped the block to fit the insides of the plates Attachment: IMG_2424-1.jpg The second method was shown on a set of plans the I had purchased but that is not how Gibson builds 335's (might be other models, I don't know) . It was a bit of a hassle to carve and fit the center block Attachment: IMG_2404-1.jpg
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Amazing how a few photos makes it all clear. Thanks, guys! |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Because the laminated plates are so difficult to come by, a number of builders have made semi hollow guitars by just hogging out a hunk of wood and leaving the center block, basically just a chambered guitar. The other style is a full hollow body like an ES175 - still laminated plates but just a couple of beams inside the top to support the bridge and pickups. Back to the OP's question, the plates are only a hair over 1/8 thick an the block supports the pickups as well as the bridge and tailpiece studs. I put a Bigsby on one of mine and it has a couple of screws into the block. |
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| Author: | retnev [ Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Thank you all for the informative responses. Much appreciated. I actually saw this video before I came here as it raised more questions than was solved. This factory tour must have been in the late Henry-era. 1) The video clearly shows that the back plate does not glue to the block as the block is perfectly straight (both front and back) and not curved to compensate for the back and front plate bulges. UPDATE: I checked again, and it is very vague, but there may be a solid single brace on the back plate filling it up. Almost impossible to see. 2) The top is in contact with the longitudinal braces which has the purpose to take up the airspace between the bulge of the top and the top part of the block. 3) The rear plate is definitely completely free from the block and only contacts at the neck joint and the tail end, since the block is perfectly straight and the back has an outward bulge. Was this a Henry-era only thing or has the back plate always been disconnected from the block (If the video shows the back having no brace) ? Of all the guitars I ever played, I believe Gibson struck on something that really works in the ES-335. Usually with thinlines, the hollow parts has a minimal influence on the sound, but with a 335, you always get that blooming-push behind a single note. No other guitar design does this so elegantly and musically. So as I already asked, were the 50s-60s 335's also issued with a disconnected back plate to the block (If the video actually shows no fill-up of the space) on the back plate. ? Did the front plate always have the braces ? I guess the answer would be no and that the block was curved back then, as someone pointed out, but it would be good to know with examples what it looked like if it was the case back then. The short block as was pointed out, is new to me. Never knew that! Which years had the short block ? |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
retnev wrote: (3) The rear plate is definitely completely free from the block and only contacts at the neck joint and the tail end, since the block is perfectly straight and the back has an outward bulge. Watch again. The back plate is NOT free. I've been doing repair for a living for over 45 years. There is NO gap. |
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| Author: | Smylight [ Fri Jan 12, 2024 9:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Questions about ES335 Center block |
Actually, my memory played tricks on me as the center block was shortened in the center, extending only between the tailpiece and endpin. This was between Dec. 1972 to Aug. 75 according to Gruhn's Guide to Vjntage Guitars. While remaining vague on specific dates, Bacon's Gibson 335 seems to concur. I agree with Chris on the full glueing of the center block on the strips made to conform to the curved ply of the top and back. The process is clearly shown in the video, and the factory tour of my expert friend confirms this. A 335 is thus solid front to back. Just having a look inside one will confirm this to you. Pierre Guitares Torvisse |
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| Author: | retnev [ Fri Jan 19, 2024 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Thanks all for replying. Ok, it is all sorted out and I agree with the premise that the block is attached to both of the plates. What baffles me still, is why the Fender Thinlines sounds so underwhelming compared with solid telecasters, but the ES335 became totally it's own thing compared to a les paul solid body. The reason I asked about this in this thread is that I want to build a center block telecaster as close as possible to an ES-335. There is just something going wrong with the telecaster thinlines and they barely make a difference. Owned two of them. One in the 80s (was a very early 70s model), gigged a lot with that, but it is still underwhelming compared to a solid body tele. What does Fender do in their thinline tele compared with the 335 ? |
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| Author: | Smylight [ Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Questions about ES335 Center block |
Those are two very different beasts. Almost nothing in common between those designs apart from the f-holes. May I suggest you build a Tele body using the 335's processes and materials so you can find what difference you may come up with? Pierre Guitares Torvisse |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Fri Jan 19, 2024 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
You might as well compare apples to avocados. |
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| Author: | retnev [ Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Smylight wrote: Those are two very different beasts. Almost nothing in common between those designs apart from the f-holes. May I suggest you build a Tele body using the 335's processes and materials so you can find what difference you may come up with? That is exactly what I said I am going to do. Build a tele body as close as possible to what is in a 335 body. |
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| Author: | retnev [ Sat Jan 20, 2024 3:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Chris Pile wrote: You might as well compare apples to avocados. You are missing the point. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Jan 20, 2024 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Nope. |
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| Author: | Smylight [ Sat Jan 20, 2024 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Questions about ES335 Center block |
Fender Coronado reissues do sport a center block, unlike the original ones. As they also use screwed-on necks, you might find it useful to go and try one before you put the hours in. I believe this is the closest you'll get to an un-existing real Thinline Tele, apart from the electronics. We have not begun discussing the bridge either, nor the fact that the Tele is dead flat on all sides. Still, keep us posted on your achievements. Pierre Guitares Torvisse |
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| Author: | retnev [ Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Chris Pile wrote: Nope. For sure. |
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| Author: | retnev [ Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
Smylight wrote: Fender Coronado reissues do sport a center block, unlike the original ones. As they also use screwed-on necks, you might find it useful to go and try one before you put the hours in. I believe this is the closest you'll get to an un-existing real Thinline Tele, apart from the electronics. We have not begun discussing the bridge either, nor the fact that the Tele is dead flat on all sides. Still, keep us posted on your achievements. Pierre Guitares Torvisse As my initial post states, it needs to be a telecaster with a center block, so that option wont work as it is something completely different from a telecaster, but thanks I did not know it has a center block which is interesting information thanks. I dont care that a telecaster has a flat top and back. All I want is to get away from the horrid telecaster thinline, and end up with something at least a bit more in the direction of a 335. That's all. |
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| Author: | rlrhett [ Sat Jan 27, 2024 7:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
I think that people are trying to tell you that the sound and playability of the 335 comes from a host of factors, not just the center block. It is built radically differently than a Tele, or even a thin line Tele. It has bent sides and thin laminated top and bottom plates. The top/back plates are mated to the center block with a unique kerfed spruce block. It has a glued in set neck. It has different scale length. It has a different kind of bridge and different pickups. It has a tilt back headstock and narrower nut. Etc. Of course, if you don’t care about any of that and just want to make yourself a Tele thin-line with a glued-in center block go right ahead. I think you will find this forum is very encouraging of experimentation. We all will be very interested in hearing about your results. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Mon Jan 29, 2024 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Questions about ES335 Center block |
retnev wrote: Smylight wrote: Fender Coronado reissues do sport a center block, unlike the original ones. As they also use screwed-on necks, you might find it useful to go and try one before you put the hours in. I believe this is the closest you'll get to an un-existing real Thinline Tele, apart from the electronics. We have not begun discussing the bridge either, nor the fact that the Tele is dead flat on all sides. Still, keep us posted on your achievements. Pierre Guitares Torvisse As my initial post states, it needs to be a telecaster with a center block, so that option wont work as it is something completely different from a telecaster, but thanks I did not know it has a center block which is interesting information thanks. I dont care that a telecaster has a flat top and back. All I want is to get away from the horrid telecaster thinline, and end up with something at least a bit more in the direction of a 335. That's all. I haven't been around for a while but along with my photos of the full and partial 335 center blocks above I have built a couple of chambered tele clones Attachment: IMG_4632.JPG Attachment: IMG_4828-1.jpg With single coils and no f-hole it sounds very much like a tele and weighs in at 5-3/4 pounds Edit to add, since you talk about wanting to build a thin line that sounds like a 335 and since I have built both, I'll just list some thoughts. Here are similarities and differences Chambered solid ash body vs laminated maple plates 1/4 inch drop top vs 1/8 arched plates One kind of silly f hole vs 2 (or none on guitars like BB's Lucile) Long scale vs short Screw on neck vs set Maple neck vs mahogany Single coils vs humbuckers or P90's Single volume and tone vs two Ash tray vs ToM .....fret board radius, finish, and on and on I'll be the first one to say some of those don't matter a twit and some matter a whole lot. One of my tele clones has P90's and it sounds nothing like a tele, its as close as you can get to a warm lush jazz guitar without being a full hollow body. I think having the air chambers vented to the outside like a 335 does have an effect on the resonance, I've always thought the single f hole on a thin line was more a fashion statement that an attempt to get an air chamber resonance. |
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