Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:41 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:10 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
This is a resurrected build from a start almost a year ago with some pretty fancy white oak with "comb" figure.
I had originally built it with a ladder top, but rebuilt it with Larson laminated bracing when an oak guitar was commissioned by our old friend, Dakota Dave Hull.
So, here is the old back with laminated bracing.

Image

Closeup of the comb figure.

Image

Here is the new top with bloodwood/holly/black purfling.

[Image


Larson X bracing glued on with a 10' cylindrical radius. Note the very wide X compared to Martin or Gibson. Lamination is red spruce/BRW.

Image

Completed Larson style bracing. Deviations are the soundhole doubler and popsicle brace. Also note the square tone bars. Bridge patch is BRW.

Image

Dave likes a bit of red on his guitars, so we did a simplified purfling. Here is the binding and purfling going in. The black stripe on the ribs and back are for ease of scraping the binding after filling and dying.

Image

Image

Box ready for dovetail and neck.

Image

Thanks for looking!

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Last edited by Haans on Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.


These users thanked the author Haans for the post: GRS (Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:43 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:27 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:50 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Austria
First name: Michiyuki
Last Name: Kubo
State:
Country: Österreich
Status: Amateur
Haans always a pleasure looking at your builds.

_________________
久保
美智え



These users thanked the author Michiyuki Kubo for the post: Haans (Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:17 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:36 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:34 pm
Posts: 223
First name: Kent
Last Name: Wilkinson
City: New Carlisle
State: Ohio
Zip/Postal Code: 45344
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Does GC stand for Grand Concert?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:30 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:35 pm
Posts: 43
First name: Murray
Last Name: Hunt
City: Whistler
State: BC
Zip/Postal Code: V0N 1B1
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Howdy Haans,

Another beauty. I was wondering about two things...

1) The laminated X Brace, is that traditional Larson style or something you do for added strength? How do you feel it differs from your non laminated X braces?

2) I've noticed most of your tops seem to fly in the face of what people are going for esthetically these days (lots of hard grain lines, wide grained, colour etc). Do you choose them for stiffness alone, to get a vintage look or is it simply that cleaner looking red spruce is unavailable these days? Anyhow, I like seeing them as its a nice change. I have a red spruce OM size top I plan on using once it's seasoned that's very similar to what's pictured here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:04 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks guys!
Kent, GC does stand for grand concert, a 15" box.
Murray, Larson's invented the laminated X brace. Think it is more for tone production than strength. I don't use anything but laminated X bracing, but I think it is less "muddy" sounding than Martin or Gibson style, but not quite as clear sounding as ladder bracing.
I have never like the looks of "Wonderbread or whitebread" tops. They just look to sterile to me. I like tops with a little more character, and the "compression grain" is in tradition for the instruments I build. I do have some rather stiff tops, but I don't like to speculate on what it does for tone. Really don't build by numbers...more by feel.
Glad to see a few folks using traditional looking tops. I love "flying in the face of what others are doing aesthetically". Not much for "modern guitars".

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:42 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Here's the neck blanked out and glued up.

Image

I thought about a white oak P/H, but decided to go with ebony and just a logo.

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:59 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:57 pm
Posts: 903
Location: London, England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Michiyuki Kubo wrote:
Haans always a pleasure looking at your builds.


Exactly my feeling!!!



These users thanked the author Nick Royle for the post: Haans (Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:16 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:05 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks for all your kind words...
Wish I had time to post more photos, but just haven't done much in the building dept.
Have been doing a massive late spring cleaning in the shop, getting out the 10 year old dust in the corners, etc. and a little re-organizing. Should be done in a week or so and then back to building.
I do have 2 guitars in the spray booth, but nothing of interest to show yet...

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:51 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 9620
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Beautiful craftsmanship Hans! Your bracing looks super clean and very, very well done. What is the laminate for the bracing?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:22 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks, Hesh, I normally use Wenge as it's relatively cheap, rings like a bell when dropped on the table saw and I love the splinters, but used BRW for this one. Larson's used just about everything including metal!
Got to do something with all that worthless BRW... idunno

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:33 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Glued on the F/B today after using the Luthier Tools neck jig to cut the dovetail. Reduced an all day job with the Stew Mac jigs to less than an hour!
I had spent a time familiarizing myself with the jig, and it looked pretty straight forward. I'll skip the dirty messy shots and show you the basic operation.
You anchor the arm with dial caliper and first calibrate the arm to the neck plate with a simple "T" shaped straightedge with a couple of holes drilled for the T/R pins. Here you see the straightedge going in with the top hole and a pin on the main plate.
Then the Dial indicator is centered on the line and zero'd out.

Image

Image

Now the jig is ready for the box. A box jig is clamped to the body and centered.

Image

Then the dovetail template is put in and routed.

Image

The box jig and body are attached to the neck jig by a couple of alignment pins. The dail indicator is checked for zero and then I dialed in .065" and tightened the jig up.

Image

Here is the knob that dials the angle in, and on the left you can see the clamp to tighten it up after adjusting.

Image

Box jig and body are removed and the male dovetail template is set into the neck jig, Neck is clamped in and routed.
Very accurate results with this jig and the neck sat less than 1/16" off the top when finished with the routing. A few swipes with my dovetail sanding stick and it dropped right in. I was amazed that in chalking the dovetail and fitting the neck, the chalk was all over the male part evenly on both sides. It just flat works perfectly.
Glued on the fingerboard and it's just about set for carving...

Image

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com



These users thanked the author Haans for the post: SteveG (Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:11 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:54 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:57 pm
Posts: 903
Location: London, England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Great jig! I'll have to my first dovetail when I try to build what, for you is a classic design, and what to me is a "Haans design" in a few guitars time! (Not sure which one I'm going to attempt yet, I keep changing my mind! Ladder braced parlour with wide purfling anyway!)

May I ask what your thoughts are on the use of the square tonebars and the square ends of the finger braces and soundhole braces? Is it just following the original design? I've been thinking about in-letting all my braces into each other on my next build so that they are all "one unit" so it intrigues me to see relatively "independent" braces.

Thanks in advance, Haans!
Nick


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:46 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks Nick!
Just following the original design (for a change). So many different pieces to a guitar that you can't point to something and say "This makes that."
I let the main X into the kerf and sometimes the tone bars, but nothing else. Don't see any advantage to insetting all the braces into each other. As far as the square tone bars, worked for me. My rule runs along the lines of if it works... idunno
Let me say at this point that I build traditional instruments for the traditional sound. Always looking for that tone and always trying different things to improve that tonality without losing sight of the sound.
I had a visit from another builder from another state (name and state kept private) last Friday, and while he was interested in ladder bracing, confessed that when tapping on my guitars, he didn't understand it at all. I said that I could understand that considering he was building "Son of Irvin" type guitars and mostly used Englemann spruce. Now, that is a far reach from what I am doing.
Point being, there are completely different worlds out there tonewise. Like a bowlback mandolin compared to a Loar. One is not better than the other, they are just different.
I couldn't tell you what insetting the braces would do tonewise. However, if that is what you want to do, have a go. I think experimentation is the only way to learn. As far as making it stronger or able to stand the test of time, lots of old guitars are still around today. Who knows???
Some folks think that leaving the inside rough with sawcuts, glue drips and such makes the guitar. Fine with me...

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com



These users thanked the author Haans for the post (total 2): DennisK (Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:27 am) • Nick Royle (Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:19 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:14 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 2794
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Fascinating words, Haans [:Y:] I always love hearing about various build philosophies from those who are experienced with them.

For me, notching braces together is a technique for thin plate building. e.g. if you have a .115" plate, and a tone bar meeting the X at zero height, the plate itself is still going to be pretty stiff, and all is well. But on a .095" plate, then you need to notch that tone bar at .020" height to get the same stiffness at the meeting point. Maybe even higher, to account for the effects of the surrounding plate stiffness as well.

And the square tone bars should be a bit heavier than triangular, but braces don't weight much anyway, so even in Somogyi/Gore/Gilet style thinking, I wouldn't fear doing it on just two of them like that :)

I like the laminate braces. I've been thinking about trying that, more for creep resistance than anything.

I'd love to tap on some of your guitars as well :D And flex unbraced and braced plates. One of my goals in building is to develop a feel for both modern thin plate and traditional thick plate building styles, so I can freely blend between them. My current theory is that thin plate style is best suited to large guitars, and thick plate style to small guitars. And the string-height-at-bridge is an underappreciated variable to push the tone even further. Have you ever tried using lower string height, to allow for lower total stiffness on a small guitar?



These users thanked the author DennisK for the post: Nick Royle (Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:45 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:50 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Dennis, I agree with you. It is so much more interesting to hear about folks different building styles than to debate the future of BRW, or which bandsaw is the best.
One of my pursuits has always been to make instruments that are on the thicker side. I have always felt that the tone is in the wood, not the shavings or dust on the floor. When I built mandolins exclusively, they were always thicker than most folks were building them. Always seemed to have a fatter tone than most others. Never have felt that building on the edge of collapse was the way to get the tone I wanted. But, today is the day of instant gratification, and lots of players buy with that in mind.
The thinner you make a top, the more it sounds like cardboard in my opinion. It looses it's identity and sounds more like every other spruce. Never much concerned with weight, so, .115 tops with proper bracing are more in my line of thinking. Folks think I am nuts when I tell them my 12's are up to .160 or so. I have made a few thin topped guitars and they aren't my cup of tea, so to speak. You also have to remember the bracing. Ladder braced guitars just are built heavier, tops need to be thicker.
I experimented a lot with bridge height with mandolins and some with guitars, but not enough. Now that I have the "dial a height" dovetail jig, I may do more with that interesting idea. I do know that there is an optimum height for different builds, and too high can be just as bad as too low. The top has to be driven just right to work properly.
I don't weigh anything anymore. Not important to me, but might be doing it unconsciously, who knows. I just don't haul out the scale and weigh bridges or braces. I drop them on a table saw and listen.
I don't flex things much anymore either, rely on tapping mostly. When I showed that visiting builder my tapping device, he laughed, but, I've been using it for years. It's a wooden handled bridge pin reamer held by the tip! I've got to the point where I can tell when the sound is right with that technical device...
Some may laugh at my technic, some my think my non tech building is missing the whole idea of building instruments, but. experience is a valid way of learning, and the best way I can think of.

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com



These users thanked the author Haans for the post (total 3): Alex Kleon (Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:23 pm) • SteveG (Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:26 am) • DennisK (Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:27 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:14 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
I am changing the title of this topic to just include all of my builds.
Here are some photos of guitars on the bench. I have Dakota Dave Hull's white oak GC-6, a white oak parlor, and a GC-12 in Honduras that has been sitting around for a couple of years waiting for the neck.

Image

In the background you can see the BRW ladder GC that is almost ready to final sand and buff and the new F5 mandolin ready to sand.

Here is the peghead to the new GC-12. I decided on a 25" scale. I have been trying to make shorter pegheads for 12's so they don't look so unbalanced.

Image

Image

Here is the purfling for this instrument. It is one of the toughest purflings I have ever done as the herringbone is split and the side without inside stripe is used. There is a tendency for this stuff to fall apart just looking at it.

Image

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:23 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Here's the start of another GC-6 white oak/red spruce.
I've spent lots of time researching a new Larson purfling, and while it is not exactly the same, it is very close and different enough for my own satisfaction. Instead of using dyed veneers, the red, white and orange are bloodwood, holly and osage.
This one is slated for Schoenberg's.

Image

Image


Thanks for looking...

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Last edited by Haans on Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:35 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:57 pm
Posts: 903
Location: London, England
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Gorgeous purfling, as always!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:52 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:04 pm
Posts: 710
First name: Doug
Last Name: Balzer
City: Calgary
State: Alberta
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
You continue to inspire others Haans.

_________________
Doug

Don't let fear or common sense stop you from trying to build something


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:07 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks guys!
Really hoping to make this one look like the old ones. Instead of blocks of holly that I normally use, I cut the holly into veneers and glued it all up to give the tiny variations in grain and color with all the little glue joint variation too.

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:04 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Meanwhile, back at the finished end of the shop...
My new BRW GC-6 Larsonesque style with laminated Stella ladder bracing...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Here's a clip of Dave Hull playing it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUom7ZcMzFw

Thanks for looking, folks!

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:04 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5079
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Build
Hanna, that's gorgeous!! What did you use for the binding and tail graft?

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Thanks, Steve, the binding and butt wedge are .090" ivoroid with BWB purfling.

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:19 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5079
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Build
I have some of the ivoroid binding but have not used it yet. Glad to see how good it looks on a finished guitar.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:53 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2456
Steve, it looks better than when photographed. Tends to look too washed out because of all cameras inabilities to cover a large ranges of light and dark.
Here is a new Stelle Auditorium 12 string that I finished a couple of weeks ago. Scale is 26.22" and strings are .070-.018. Instrument can tune to A, B flat and B.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Dave Hull is not a 12 string player, but offered to give it a spin...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAW3RikQSDQ

Has a room filling, jangly old time sound.


Here are a few photos of the start of a BBQ Bob Stella Grand Concert 12 in white oak. The first is the size comparison with the Auditorium mold...

Image

Image

Image

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com