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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:37 am 
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Mahogany
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:08 pm
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First name: David
Last Name: Schneider
City: Silvis
State: IL
Zip/Postal Code: 61282
Country: USA
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Repair, restoration or preservation? What is the difference and how do you decide which to do and when? If someone comes to you with an old Gibson with broken tuners and a missing bridge do you replace the tuners with new ones or try to find old ones to match? Same for the bridge, or do you make one from scratch as close to the original as possible? Do you touch up the finish or leave it alone? Just askin’.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:32 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
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We use an expression frequently that goes like this: "What's appropriate for the instrument....."

So as to when one endeavors to subscribe to repair, restoration, or preservation basically depends on a number of factors. By what's appropriate for the instrument some of the considerations are what the owner wants, is it a vintage instrument or an important instrument, and what is the ethical thing to do.

For example we see a lot of Gibson LG-1's with that stinkin plastic bridge. Granted some of them qualify as vintage but OTOH if the goal is to make it a player that plastic bridge has to go. They also are not all that valuable, yet, so functionality and player wishes may over trump any thoughts of preservation or keeping the instrument true to what it was back in the day when it was made.

And then we have a 1936 OOO-18 which is a pre-war Martin. Making a new bridge if it needs one will not necessarily detract from the value much if any if done very well and true to the original. Meaning a well-made replacement out of the same materials without taking any creative license. The instrument may become functional again and is preserved to a greater degree because the bridge plays a role too in keeping the braces inside in place too.

1965 Fender Jag, owner complains of scratchy pots and switches. We could replace them but the proper date coded pots are key to the value of this ax so even though the owner wants to replace the pots we suggest cleaning the original electronics and keeping the instrument as it was built.

80's Ov*tion electric guitar has broken tuners. It's not a valuable instrument although they do have a certain following.... go figure.... If the original tuners can't be sourced anymore use something else that works.

Knowing which club to pull from the bag, repair, restoration, or preservation depends on again goals for the thing, what it is, what the value may be, and/or is it an important instrument. Budget plays a role too but some repair folks will refuse to cut corners if the requested repair is again.... not appropriate for the instrument.

No easy answer in practice, defining the terms is easy.

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These users thanked the author Hesh for the post (total 2): gxs (Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:09 pm) • nutsdan (Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:01 am)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:50 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:55 pm
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First name: Rick
Last Name: Turner
City: Santa Cruz
State: CA
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Country: US
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I'm with Hesh on this 100%

One of the issues is to inform the client if the instruments has attained or is headed to collectible status; that can inform some decisions.

In rough terms, I see it as:

Repair = get it playing well, and do no harm. Maybe anything goes to make it play better than ever depending on owner's desires. For instance, a refret on a bound-neck Gibson would allow overlaid frets...definitely NOT original. Or you may choose to properly shield an electric or re-zap pickups or even go to a 5 way switch on an older Strat. These could fall under a fourth category: "Customize"

Restore = attempt to make it as 100% original as possible...and be playable (even if that means "vintage intonation"!) This category separates the pros from the amateurs pretty definitively. At the highest level, your work becomes unnoticeable at best, and is of compatible and equal craftsmanship to how the instrument was originally made. Of course, you can't hide crack cleats, etc., but you can make them look good. But, for instance, if you refret a pre-war D-45, you'd better make it look so original that the top vintage dealers would think the frets were original and remarkable for the lack of wear...you're working on an instrument worth more than 100 grand here...

Preserve = repair as necessary to prevent further deterioration, but maybe it's a wall hanger for the next generation to restore.

Question: How soon do you all think it will be considered OK to refinish early nitro lacquered guitars? Most of them are going to need it...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:57 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

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First name: Rick
Last Name: Turner
City: Santa Cruz
State: CA
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OH, to Hesh's comment on the Gibson plastic bridge. That was just one of a series of total f...in' disasters from that company. I was replacing those abominations when they were brand new in 1964! Then there's the Tunamatic bridge on J-200's, the top damper on those same guitars, the 3/16" thick Hummingbird pickguards, the adjustable height ceramic saddles, the unshielded Les Pauls (now we do it, now we don't...).

I think it's a mistake not to fix those obvious factory errors, though the general quality of the instruments subjected to those highly questionable decisions is nothing to write home about, either. Both Gibson and Fender did have dark years. Martin not quite so much, though a lot of '50s and 60's guitars can benefit from careful brace shaving. Wish I hadn't sold my '58 000-28...it responded very nicely to scalloping.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:57 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Conservation / preservation, restoration, and repair can often have different motivations and different prescribed solutions which can be at odds with one another. Unfortunately there's no solid formula or flow chart to follow which leads to simple black and white answers. Rather, there are many hats one must wear and a lot of questions and circumstances that one must carefully weigh when trying to work as a repair technician and a conservator at the same time.

Some of the points commonly considered -

What is the rarity of the artifact?
How does it's functional value compare to it's market value today? How is that relationship likely to change in the future?
If you are working as a professional, how do you expect your peers would judge your work when it eventually crosses their bench (and it will some day)? How do you expect your successors will judge the work in 30 or 60 years?
If an artifact is so compromised as to require notable modification, does it stand to have greater value retired from use and preserved as a historical artifact than it would if restored to functional integrity?
If the work you do involves modifications, is this work reversible? Do you choose your adhesives and joinery methods carefully and intentionally to allow for this?
If you are replacing parts like tuners or bridges, can you source or construct replacements which fit within the original footprint? Is or will the instrument be worth the extra time in taking such measures in interests of preservation?
What prior work has been done to the instrument, and how much original integrity remains to be preserved?

This is a small sampling of the questions that may run through an experienced and responsible conservator / repair person's mind as soon as the customer opens their case, and I would argue it is more important to have the right questions to start with than any general answers.

This is still a very juvenile and disorganized trade we are in compared to the more developed conservation ethic in other fields, and we typically serve a very broad market of interests. In a day I may work on one instrument which warrants as much conservation ethic as the Maytag repairman considers for your dryer, to another more equivalent to restoring a '69 Camaro, and finish the day on a job that deserves the attentiveness of preserving every thread of paper in an original handwritten score from Chopin. Judgements have to be made for each case, and the range of priorities is so incredibly wide that all one can do is learn the market and history, ask the right questions, and hopefully make the most appropriate judgements.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:16 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

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First name: Rick
Last Name: Turner
City: Santa Cruz
State: CA
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Todd, it might be interesting to research and find out how many bridge heights Martin used to deal with slightly varying neck angles. I doubt they ever had to have what I know Gibson once needed, but what about carefully shaving the vintage bridge down to a different...but vintage appropriate height (there must have been thinner ones...).

One could probably carefully remove the original ivory saddle...soak the saddle/bridge slot area with alcohol or maybe vinegar to bust loose the hot hide glue. Then reshape the bridge top as needed with maybe some sanding on the bridge bottom. And if you couldn't get the original saddle out clean, then just put the bridge on a milling machine and rout it out. It's not that hard to find genuine elephant ivory in saddle sized pieces these days.

With the right approach, I think this could be done as both a "repair" and "restoration".

And just wait about 50 years. It'll need a reset and a refinish at that point if it's to be playable...

The clock is ticking on vintage nitro lacquer. Guitar collectors of the future are just going to have to suck it up and get used to the idea that a refin is probably going to be a better option than living with 100 year old (plus) nitro on a lot of guitars. The degradation of nitrocellulose products never stops, and we're right at the predicted 75 year life for nitro lacquer (as per a DuPont chemist). Just as good neck resets are now considered to be part of the price of owning vintage acoustics, so too will be refinishing and probably re-binding where the original binding is celluloid. Re-binding and repro pickguards are already becoming common with D'Angelicos and Brooklyn Gretsch guitars. Ditto replacing tuner buttons. Some of the materials used in 20th Century guitar manufacturing are just not able to be conserved, restored, or preserved with currently known methods.

Google "celluloid rot" for a bit of an eye-opener. You'll not want to keep vintage celluloid bearing instruments in cases any more if you do the research...

The only thing I know of that can hold back the years just a little bit with nitro lacquer is Behlen's Qualarenu. It replasticizes the lacquer to a certain extent, and will do a pretty good job at knitting together lacquer crazing. It's not 100%, but it's pretty good, and better than cellosolve.


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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:39 am 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:08 pm
Posts: 72
First name: David
Last Name: Schneider
City: Silvis
State: IL
Zip/Postal Code: 61282
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
I question the direction that the repair of older guitars is headed. I have been told not to replace very worn, cracked and pitted fingerboards because it will detract from the value of the guitar. Yet violin repair people routinely replace fingerboards when they have been plained down too thin. No one builds them up with epoxy. I have been told to save old Kluson tuners with worn gears and rotten buttons. Yet violins periodically get there pegs replaced (even the finest violins do not have original pegs). If we had a vintage car would we recap the tires just to keep them original? When the fabric seats are worn through do we try to weave in new threads? We replace the frets when they are worn, why not the “ebonized maple” board on an old National?


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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 9:11 am 
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PT66 wrote:
I question the direction that the repair of older guitars is headed. I have been told not to replace very worn, cracked and pitted fingerboards because it will detract from the value of the guitar. Yet violin repair people routinely replace fingerboards when they have been plained down too thin. No one builds them up with epoxy. I have been told to save old Kluson tuners with worn gears and rotten buttons. Yet violins periodically get there pegs replaced (even the finest violins do not have original pegs). If we had a vintage car would we recap the tires just to keep them original? When the fabric seats are worn through do we try to weave in new threads? We replace the frets when they are worn, why not the “ebonized maple” board on an old National?



I agree , If the customer gives me leeway I do my best to bring it back to org. playing condition .. However I do leave it to customer . If its mine , Than I do as I feel is necessary .

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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 10:16 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Here's what I do....
I inform the client of all the choices available, and point out the pros and cons...
THEN, he decides.

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