Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:06 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Goldtop finish disaster
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:12 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
OK, so this guy I met on an automotive forum who sought my help with his refinishing problem. He is refinishing a goldtop that someone painted black with latex paint....

He had his gold metallic lacquer looking good, and began spraying his clear coat.
http://s588.photobucket.com/user/studem ... sort=3&o=3

It wrinkled a bit as it dried, and as he went to sand it off... this is what happened.
http://s588.photobucket.com/user/studem ... sort=3&o=2

http://s588.photobucket.com/user/studem ... sort=3&o=1

http://s588.photobucket.com/user/studem ... sort=3&o=0

The whole layer peeled right off.... He called his paint supplier for help, and they basically laughed at him. That's when he got hold of me. It's obviously a plastic finish, but I can't imagine what caused one whole layer of clear to do this.

Anyone?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:37 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:02 am
Posts: 2351
Location: Canada
First name: Bob
Last Name: Garrish
City: Toronto
State: Ontario
Country: Canada
Status: Professional
Adhesion issue, so it's down to surface prep. Paint, like glue, needs a surface it can chemically bond to. That means the surface needs to be clean, dry, and dust free. If he used a stripper to remove the previous finish, then it could have left a messy layer on top of the wood. If the surface was contaminated with dust, oil, or remnants of prior finish then same thing.

Best bet would be to get down to bare wood chemically or mechanically, sand or scrape the whole surface clean, then blow it off with compressed air -thoroughly- to get rid of the tiniest, stickiest bits of dust.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:39 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have to agree with the previous comment. Wow. Not a good day

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:37 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I advised him to strip the whole instrument completely and make sure it's absolutely clean before starting again.
I also advised him to get finishing materials that are compatible, and to get advice from different suppliers.
I thought perhaps he had switched brands of finish, or used dissimilar finishes - but he assured me he used all acrylic lacquers.
That peeling layer sure doesn't look like any acrylic lacquer I've ever seen.
I told him I'd ask some other folks for their take... and that's ya'll.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:41 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:43 am
Posts: 1326
Location: chicagoland, illinois
City: chicagoland
State: illinois
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
is it a Gibson, or a knockoff? i wonder if a sheet of gold colored plastic or foil was laminated on, then loosened up when the guy tried to strip the black latex?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:49 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
It's an Epiphone which he stripped down to bare wood (the top had knots in it).
He applied the goldtop finish himself (picture 1).
The clearcoat either absorbed part of the gold finish, or peeled part of it off.
It's really weird in my experience.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:23 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:43 am
Posts: 1326
Location: chicagoland, illinois
City: chicagoland
State: illinois
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
heh it is kinda comical looking, like a skinned beast from a hunting excursion. some kind of catastrophic chemical incompatibility is all i can say, which i realize is unhelpful. whatever he did- don't do it :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:27 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
There is a whole world of difference between painting cars and finishing wood when it comes to surface prep. It sure don't look like this was striped to bare wood. Looks like he stripped the back and sides to wood and tried to shoot lacquer right over the poly finish That was originally there without so much as a kiss from a piece of sandpaper....no wonder it peeled.
Image

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:11 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Oh, boy... I've been talking to the guy again this morning, and..... he's not as smart as he thinks he is. He told me he was using acrylic lacquer. I had him read me the cans, and it turns out he was using water based lacquer. He thought water-based meant acrylic. No wonder his paint supply guys laughed at him when he asked for help. Now he's sure they did it to him to be mean.... I may be wasting my time with the guy. I'll let you know.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:22 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Chris Pile wrote:
Oh, boy... I've been talking to the guy again this morning, and..... he's not as smart as he thinks he is. He told me he was using acrylic lacquer. I had him read me the cans, and it turns out he was using water based lacquer. He thought water-based meant acrylic. No wonder his paint supply guys laughed at him when he asked for help. Now he's sure they did it to him to be mean.... I may be wasting my time with the guy. I'll let you know.



Ummmmmmmmm I hope he is better at automotive !!!

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:04 am
Posts: 5743
First name: Chris
Last Name: Pile
City: Wichita
State: Kansas
Country: Good old US of A
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Well, he redid it - and it looks much better.
He say this is finished, despite the big holes and no pickup rings.

By the way, he can't figure out PhotoBucket, so he sends me the pix to post for him......

http://s588.photobucket.com/user/studemax7/media/nox5.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:04 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Eclectec

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:19 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:02 pm
Posts: 2
First name: Hamilton
Last Name: Perkins
City: Newport Beach
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92663
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
This is awesome. I don't think I have ever seen a finish do that in my entire lifetime of projects.

My 2C. Whenever you are unsure what type of finish is on a guitar you are restoring/refinishing/overspraying you have to know what type of finish, pore filler or sealer is on the wood. In this case i'm guessing, and just guessing that the guitar had a poly finish and he tried to put lacquer over it. It appears as though the gold did bond to the wood as well....

If you are unsure what type of finish you have, you can always apply a layer of shellac. It is the only workable material that both poly and lacquer bond too.... I use it as a pore filler as well when guitars have been stripped because it gives you a nice clean prep surface and doesnt turn funny colors.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com