Official Luthiers Forum!

Solely owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:05 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:30 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Attachment:
purfling.jpg
Hello, Looking for some ideas on binding for this restoration project. I have an existing ledge of just under 4.5mm with no samples of what was original to the guitar. All I seem to be able to find is 1.5mm thick binding.

I was thinking of just using 3 pieces in a BWB or WBW configuration but I am concerned that the ledge is a bit inconsistent and when I scrape level with the side it may be noticeably thin in some areas. I was hoping to find a thicker binding so the ledge width inconsistency would not be as noticeable but I have had no luck. I can't rerout the ledge as it would cut into the purfling in some areas.

I am also missing about 8" of purfling which is a more standard width of .080" but a non standard pattern.

Any of you restoration people have any advice?

Thanks in advance, Bill


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:00 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 1874
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Very pretty. Tell us more about that nice little guitar.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:06 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
This is a P. Benson guitar made approx 1900. I picked this up in pieces, neck off, Back half off and many cracks. I am heading out now but I will post more pics later this evening. Thanks for your interest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2484
I might be able to help. Email me at johann@brentrup.com and we'll see.

Image

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:17 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:20 pm
Posts: 106
First name: Joe
Last Name: McGlynn
City: Scotts Valley
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 95066
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I really like the details I see in both the guitars pictured.

I have one guitar (my second) on the bench to make the fretboard today, and finalize the neck. Im starting to think about what I want in the next one I build, and I feel like I want to incorporate some cool flash in binding / purfling.

I'd love to see more.

_________________
========
Blog on Making Stuff: http://www.McGlynnOnMaking.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:01 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Here are some more pics of this guitar in the condition I received it in. I will attach more of my progress pics as I go.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:03 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
And a few more, I absolutely love these tuners.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:00 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 677
Location: United States
First name: John
Last Name: Lewis
City: Newnan
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30265
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
That's a pretty little guitar. I've got an old Washburn parlor guitar circa 1910 with similar specs and similar problems. Good luck - I look forward to seeing more of the restoration.

_________________
John Lewis
Wannabe builder owned by 3 crazy dachshunds


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:00 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Well I have been making some good progress. here are some photos


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:04 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
I also did a little research. very excited to find this original catalog entry from 1905.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:04 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 100
First name: Jan-Alexis
Last Name: Tremblay
City: Montreal
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Amazing.

Was it originally ladder braced?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:11 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2484
I had the good fortune of having Bill over on Saturday with the instrument. It is undoubtedly the pinnacle of the "Benson line". Since, I have seen photos of lesser but in better shape instruments. Bill had already re-glued the back on the ribs with fish glue, probably a very wise decision as ribs distort quickly, however he said the back could come off easily again.
First and foremost, the instrument has a remarkable likeness to Larson design. I cannot be sure of the second X brace and the large patch between that X and the tailblock is rude. So is the WAY oversize bridge plate that looks to be IR. The front and back soundhole re-inforcements are also rude, and not original in my view. The front short block between the 1st UTB and the nose block is an obvious addition in my book, and the popsicle is questionable. Most of the time it was either 2 UTB's or a popsicle...
Most notable in the photos is the ultra wide spread of the main X, VERY Larson. Very odd that the small wing braces run the "wrong" way.
It will be an extreme challenge for Bill, and we talked about how to and how much to restore it without going overboard. Better to probably do no harm, but get it playable.
Good luck Bill!

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:45 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
First I want to say what a pleasure it was to meet Hans and his wife. He was gracious enough to take a part of his day yesterday to review my project and give me his thoughts and advice. Hans had a great deal of pertinent information as well as some contacts for some specialty materials which I am grateful to have on this restoration. Now that I have things stabilized and have less concerns about further deterioration taking place, I think the next step is to get that back off again and clean up some of the issues Hans mentioned above as they will rob this instrument of its tone and projection. I will post some photos when I get there.

Thanks again Hans!

Bill J



These users thanked the author Dieguy for the post: Haans (Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:57 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:48 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:14 am
Posts: 100
First name: Jan-Alexis
Last Name: Tremblay
City: Montreal
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'll be following along for sure.
Thank you for posting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:52 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 5113
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Build
Cool ol guitar. And I agree, the tuner buttons are very cool!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"



These users thanked the author SteveSmith for the post: Dieguy (Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:29 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
OK, Here is a good one. As you can see in the photos the old French polish on this guitar is in rough shape. I have a bit of experience in french polish so I thought I could get it back into shape by spiriting but this french polish was so old it hardly even softened it. I was convinced my only choices would be to totally strip the old finish and start over or leave the finish in the terrible condition you see in the photos above. Neither choice was very attractive. I noticed when I removed the back I applied some heat with a rubber strip heater and it seemed to clear up the finish. So I decided to try a heat gun. Check out the results:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaXajiJ0GEs&t=3s

Better than I could have imagined. The cracks on the back are all sealed up and now I have the original French Polish on its way back to being acceptable.

Still trying to find some extra wide Ivoroid. If anyone has any secret suppliers let me know. I need .175" wide X .135" tall ivoroid binding. Not having any luck. I have a few options I am looking at but none seem too promising. One thing at a time.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:42 pm
Posts: 4173
Location: Buffalo, NY
First name: Robert
Last Name: Cefalu
City: Buffalo
State: NY
Zip/Postal Code: 14217
Country: US
Wow the heat gun results look terrific. Nice little guitar. Did Hans say what he thought the back and sides where?

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498



These users thanked the author Bobc for the post: Dieguy (Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:57 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:13 pm
Posts: 27
First name: John
Last Name: Joyce
City: Saint Paul
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55116
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Very neat results. I wonder what is happening to the finish to do that under heat? And will it last?

_________________
Having fun learning every day.



These users thanked the author John J for the post: Dieguy (Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:15 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:21 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hi Bob, Hans confirmed my belief that this is Brazilian Rosewood back and sides.

John, I believe the cause of the cloudiness was moisture trapped in the shellac, probably from being stored in overly warm & humid conditions. The heat allows the moisture to escape and clarify the finish. I filmed this nearly a month ago and no signs of any cloudiness regenerating. I am confident this is a permanent fix assuming proper storage and maintenance is practiced.

Thanks for your interest guys. I am almost done replacing the missing pearl and abalone on the body. I will post more pics soon.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:57 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 3094
Holy cow that heat gun fix is brilliant. I never would have thought to do that. I've got an old SS Stewart that could use such a treatment.

That's a beautiful instrument, and yeah those tuners are spectacular. Do you suspect that double X bracing is original?



These users thanked the author jfmckenna for the post: Dieguy (Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:33 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:16 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hope the heat gun trick works for you jfmckenna.

I am not sure on the originality of the lower x bracing. Based on the markings on the sound board and the patina on the wood, if its not original it has been there a long time.

I have removed the ridiculously oversized cleat and bridge plate, now I need to decide what to do with the bracing. I am leaning towards leaving it. As I really do think this configuration is original. we will see.

Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:41 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 2484
I talked to Ron over at St Paul Guitar Repair and he said he had worked on 10-15 Bensons over the years and all he ever saw was ladder or ladder/angled V bracing. Never saw a double X. There is so much glue slopped all over inside that it's hard to say what's going on there. Some of it looks like yellow glue. It's not new except for the ridiculous brigde plate, but could be an addition. Even the obvious additions like the whole upper brace scheme and sound hole bracing look old. I mean, 2 UTB's, a popsicle, and half a 2X4?
Please...
There seems to be some heavy sanding inside from the photo too. Who knows...

_________________
J. Brentrup Guitars & Mandolins
http://www.brentrup.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:09 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:58 pm
Posts: 12
First name: Bill
Last Name: Johanson
City: St Paul Park
State: MN
Zip/Postal Code: 55071
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Well, here is a photo of the inside minus the bridge plate and the U-shaped cleat on the lower bout. I had a little tear out at the bvottom of the bridge pin holes which I chiseled smooth and applied the patch as seen in the photo. You can see the footprint of what I would assume is the original bridge plate.

The bottom U-shaped cleat was adhered with Hide Glue. The bridge plate was yellow Glue ((ughh! that was a bit of a fight))

All of the yellow glue inside appears to be the same so I assume this was all slopped on at the time the bridge plate was added. Not sure if the braces were all reglued and the squeeze out was just not cleaned up, or if the yellow glue was just spread along the sides of the braces thinking it was resupporting them. From how it looks I am guessing the latter.

Trying to decide how far to take it on the inside. I have a new maple bridgeplate made to the original footprint. I will recleat the center seam and a few cracks with some more typically sized and shaped spruce cleats. The top definitely opened up a bit sound wise when the plate and cleat came out. That is not saying much, it sounded like you were tapping on a 2 x 6 before, which I think Hans will attest to. It still doesn't resonate much but I dont want to damage anything trying to improve the tone. We will see,

Bill


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com