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I was on the fence about doing this ( if you want to know about the questions i had viewtopic.php?f=10112&t=27181 )...but I to start off in this hobby about 40-50% of the tools need, which is pretty good, however I went to a friends house the other day and remembered his neighbor (who we are friends with) had a work shop. So I took a look around this this is SOME of the stuff he had:

Delta 12" Band Saw / sander
Rockwell / Delta Uniplane
MANY Miter Saws
Porter Router Base ?? Didn't really know what this was
Buck Bro hand plane
8" Table grinder
Many clamps and Jigs
A big working table
Delta 16 1/2" Drill Press
Delta DC-380 Planer
Rear Cutter Guard
Compressor
Stationary Band Sander
Craftsman electronic Measureing Radial Saw
Table saw
Router
Coping saw
C-Clamps
Many Quick Grip Clamps @ various sizes
Dremel
6” ruler scale
Dremel router base
3/32" Spiral Downcut Bit
Felt Sanding Block
Random Orbital Sander
Drill Bits



Anything else I need?!?!


Anyway...I have done alot of research lately if you read the above link, especially on types of wood...and was wondering your personal preference on what I need....I want a guitar that is good all around, and is clear...I would also like a warm kind of mellow sound, with some nice deep lows, but mostly very crisp highs, and good mids. I hear Koa is good all around, but I definitely do not like it on the neck ( I tried this out yesterday at the guitar store.) I would like a fairly quick response on the guitar, but I do not need a high volume...average will be fine. I might go with a full bodied Koa guitar, or maybe just the top koa...I dont know what is a good mix with this, but I am considering Indian, Hondoran, or possible Brazilian rosewood, cocobolo, or possible even mahogany. I do not know yet what is best for fretboards.

Your comments on different comments on wood would be greatly appriciated...I also have other questions but Ill start off here...



Thank you all very much, great helpful friendly forum!
-Joey

Not sure if you're planning on an acoustic or an electric here Joey. Can you be more specific as to the type/kind of guitar you're planning on?

A lot of those tools sound unnecessary for guitar building. I wrote out a list of what I consider the "essentials" a while back, in this post. Very few power tools. The dremel and router base and bits are not even necessary unless you want to do complex inlays. Probably better would be a laminate trimmer, with a bearing bit and several bearings for binding/purfling, 1/16" bit for most inlays, and 1/8 bit for truss rod slots and saddle slots.

As for wood, I'd say stick to the old reliables for the first one. Spruce top, mahogany neck. By my research, there is far less information on how to handle hardwood tops. I'll be trying a mahogany top on my second guitar, but I'm still probably a couple months minimum from finishing the first, so it will be a while before I can report the results

By your description of tone, I'd say koa or mahogany would be good for the back/sides. Maybe Australian blackwood as a cheaper substitute for koa. I just got some from bob_connor in the swap meet for a future all-blackwood guitar. Great stuff, and he still had several sets left at the end of the meet so you might message him and ask.

Ok great! thanks for your help, and I am planning on making an acoustic....


and as for the list of tools...Im not exactly sure what tools I need all together, but there are many lists provided, thanks for the above like. The purpose for me listing all of those was to simply show that I was concerned with my lack of tools, but now it is not a concern as I have a large selection of tools to access 24/7


I love koa, so I think I am going to stick with that for the top, but not so sure for the B & S... I was thinking of an all Koa body but I am affraid this wont project enough, and will sound too shallow or not vibrant enough...however I do not want to go over board...as for the neck I an looking for a very smooth wood, and freatboard will probably be like a rosewood or ebony. Just askin for your insite and personal perfrence on wood tones.


Thanks again for the comments

Dito on what Filippo said .
I have years behind me as a carpenter. and I thought like you did. first will be just as good as what you see out there ! that aint the case "mostly". also a cutaway on the first, koa top ! etc !! go with a kit. I have a guy in my shop now who wants to build an electric but he was stuck as he made it all from scratch. So I told him I would help him out. to get him going. he had cut the fret-slots by hand and they needed redoing, so I told him to order a new slotted fretboard ! some things are just plain stupid to try to do on your first " if you want to come out with a good guitar" go with a kit. buy wood that are easy to bend and not expensive myrtle is a good choice ! east indian rosewood or mahogany. in the end its all up to you. and all is doable, but I think you will be happier with the end result if you get a kit.
in the way you write - I may consider BRW !!!! and the way you explaine what sound your after, it sounds to me that you think this is easy !. get yourself some cheap neck material and then try to carve yourselfe a neck with all that involves, see how that goes first. then you might get a better understanding of the level of difficulty involved.

Lars

Hmmm, well athough your right about me trying to start off too big, you guys seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to stay, or didnt read my above link. In no way at all do I think this is easy, and almost considered not doing because of the complexities and how hard it is. In my understanding, anyone can do it, only the experianced can do it right to where it sounds good. I see it as although there are specific steps to follow, it is an aquired art and skill. The fact that a brand new beginner is even considering a guitar so complex is very underminding to you pros out there, and that was not the impression I was trying to give. However I will probably go with some very wood, im not sure on the kit yet...I am looking around right now for em

I dont think that is what they are trying to say here . Most will tell you to geta Kit because they learned how hard it can be from scratch from experience .

I started from scratch on my Mandolins instead of a kit and , have made a couple good mandolins , and several bad mistakes. I have one mandolin that became firewood . If I ever do a "F" Mando , i will start with a Kit .

Reason people recommend the kit is it gets you a decent understanding of the way the unit should go together and will produce a decent guitar first time out.

If you wish to start from scratch , then take your time and do alot of research before each step . Patience is truly a virtue in luthrie i have found out rather quickly . You will find that the people on this forum are truly very helpfull and will be willing to guide u through the rough spots either way you decide to go.


ENJOY !!

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Hello and welcome to the addiction...

Good for you for starting with a clear idea of what you want to achieve. As you understand from your previous comments, getting there is the challenge...

As for kits versus scratch, I think there are benefits to doing both. My first was from scratch, and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. That being said, it's more of a question of personal temperament than a "better" or "worse" discussion.

The important thing to keep in mind with the first is that, if you're careful, do plenty of research and measure twice, cut once, you might end up with a guitar that will be playable, will have a pleasing tone, and will be a great conversation piece. You'll have a lot of opportunities to recover from errors, and that's a huge part of the experience (and not all bad) from my perspective.

And you'll probably be eager to start on your second.

As for wood combos, I'd stick with woods that are relatively inexpensive, easy to bend, and are very common combos - e.g. sitka spruce and indian rosewood, sitka spruce and mahogany. For the first guitar, you want to eliminate unnecessary variables, as your process and technique (being the first) will, by definition, be a large variable. I don't think I'd build a first guitar with a Koa top - much of the reference info that you'll use/need will assume a spruce (or similar top). For a Koa top, you'll need to make some adjustments to bracing, thickness of top, etc. Why get so complicated on the first?

Have fun.

The advice I would give about tools is that there is no way to know what you need before hand. Figure out your wood selection (I would begin with East Indian rosewood and a good spruce top because they are easy) and start building your guitar. As you go from one sequence to the next you will discover if the tools you have will work or not. If you need something specific then at that time you can make or buy what you need. This spreads out any tool purchases and keeps you from wondering why you bought a watchamacallit when you run across it in a drawer a year from now.

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Uhm... always avoided butting in on the Scratch versus kit debate, because I am a scratch man

...albeit with expert advice and guidence from a pro ... I think if going alone, a kit will help you 'put it together' but there are a couple of issues here, Things like cutting fret slots need to be learned - and the earlier you strat the better - the basic principles of putting these things together are pretty simple...the art is in getting it to sound like a guitar and look decent - things that come with patience and experience and advice... Also, learning to thickness a top with a plane etc are all part of the learning process - if you are using a kit just to see how it comes together, I am not sure what the value is here, because the understanding you get from hearing the difference as you thickness your top and carve your braces is invaluable. Bending sides is about practice so the more the better, Ok carving a neck can be daunting, but only because so many seem to advocate that it needs to be accurate in dimension to the 0.1 mm (sure the joint is important), but the shape, profile etc is something that you can measure with you hand, how it feels in the hand etc...and learn all the time. Seriously if you invest in a good book (eg Kinkade) and have patience and have a few cheapo pieces to practice on, then the first wont be the best guitar you ever build by a long shot, but will arguably be the most valuable not just in lessons earned, but in what it meant to you to have the experience - and certainly one that gives the most pleasure!

Can't disagree with any of the perspectives here. It really starts with clear building goals, both long and short term. What is going to make you happy during the process, how many guitars do you want to build? What are your budgets for tools and wood?
I am just about to spray my first that I built with the following goals in mind:
I will build many guitars in the future
I want to educate myself on various techniques in the shop, hand tools vs. power tools.
My overall budget is very limited.
So I proceeded with the build with the following mindset:
Spend money on tools and jigs that will work in the future.
The first guitar may suck, it is more (to me) for testing the jigs and establishing how I will do processes in the future.
This first guitar will have $35 worth of wood, and that is fine by me, my goals are to make a great guitar #5 or 10
I would rather live with a minor blemish then pursue short term perfection. I want to get to guitar 5, so I want to build the guitar, learn the lessons, make the adjustments so the next is better, and get back to work.
I did go back and rout the bindings off the back, that first go was terrible, couldn't live with that, but I had extra bindings made so it was not hard, the second came out acceptably, not perfect, but I got a chip on the rib during the rerout, a scar I am happier to live with then the sloppy binding. I tried to do the first binding all in one length, bad idea for the first try.

Another thing to consider is the guitar design, many start out deviating from standard plans, so a scratch build gets harder, and advise gets harder to come by, but if that is part of your goal, then go for it. I have 3 sets of plans on the wall, and two books, Cumpiano and Benedetto, and the guitar will reflect all 5 plans.

It is a long process basic goals will keep you moving when you get stuck.
Rob

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My advice would be don't get sucked into the notion that you need every tool stew-mac sells to build your first instrument. Aquire the tools as you need them. There are always different ways of achieving the same results, just remember safety should be the highest priority. Your first build will be a great learning process, your going to make mistakes, your going to learn how to fix those mistakes, and your going to end up with something that you will be proud of. If you want a Koa top cutaway, build a koa top cutaway but keep in mind that you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Good luck with your build and welcome.

Thank you guys, I really do value each piece of advice that is given to me. People always listen to the advice they WANT to hear, but I will truly take each suggestion into consideration.


I have quite a lot of tools at my own home, but the tool list above is fully accessible to me for free...so I will use those for the first few projects I have until I become more skilled and invest in equipment that is expensive. So for my first guitar project and possibly more tool expenses are virtually not existent (however I do need a side bender).


A major regret I have is I did not discover that swap-a-paluza forum until the day it close and missed out on all those great deals : (... I might go with a kit, but as of right now am still leaning toward starting from scratch as I am very articulate. and learn a great deal on the subjects I become interested in before I get involved with them. So again I think I am going to go with a common, easily bendable wood like suggested, however I am still looking up tonal qualities and would love for you guys to share your experiences with them. As for the advice it is very valuable and appreciated and I thank everyone here for there help.


-Thanks again everyone, and would love for the replies to keep coming...another question I had was I want to build the shape of a Taylor GA...any ideas on where I can find the plans for this (dimensions, bracing, etc)


Joey

I say start scratch if that sounds more appealing to you. That's what I'm doing, and having a blast. For me, a kit would be a waste of money because I'd be paying extra to not learn some parts
Of course, the advantages are that you get done way sooner with less tools, higher chance of the guitar being playable, and therefore are less likely to give up. But I have no plans to give up even if the first one is unplayable and/or implodes on itself, so it's just as well to buy the tools up front, and struggle through everything so there will be less unknown on the next one, and the one after that.

And now I know why you want the koa. Taylor Swift's koa GA was one of my inspiration guitars to start building for. Actually, that's the one that aussie blackwood I mentioned will be used on. I thought about just buying one, but the only one in a nearby store sounds like a cardboard box. A lot of them on youtube sound lifeless too. So far I've only heard 2 really great ones with that snappy, shimmery sound I love. Swift's, and this one.

As for GA plans, Taylor's own web site has some measurements, like the lower bout being 16 inches. Then you can reference photos to approximate the shape, and take measurements off real ones in stores if you want. Taylor also has a small photo of the soundboard bracing pattern here http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/features/bracing/Types.aspx, so you could get pretty close from that.

I had never seen that Taylor swift guitar but its sickkk, and that youtube post you showed me was awsome! I saw those picutres on the website, but I was looking more for exact measurements...like you cant buy those kind of plans can you? Also I do really want Koa but am worried I will break out, using it for my first guitar.


Thanks for the input!

I did not see a thickness sander on ur list. Buy a kit. Many of us did that. Problem is you don't know what you don't know until you go through the process. Also, buy a mold. That will get you a long way.

Finally, is this a one time deal? Or will u be building more?

Not sure probably more than one, and I have a thickness sander, that list was only some of the things in the shop...it is fully stocked up! ...and what is a mold

I am starting my first build and I want to build it from scratch. Actually, at this point I am not building the guitar I am building the mold, bending machine and a few other jigs to get me going. Baby steps if you will to building a guitar.

I went with mahogany sides and back quarter sawn($10.00 total) 3x4 mahogany block for two necks ($8.00) bear claw Sitka spruce top ($26.00). I have given myself permission to know little, learn from my mistakes and laugh a lot. I have a plan or plans I should say from SM. I have a goal of finishing it when it is done and not before! No time limits. I figure I will be making some parts 2 or 3 times at least and that is OK with me. If it plays when I am done well that is just a plus. If it plays well enough to sound half mellow that is a bigger plus. I think I just need to put my time in and keep laughing and learning. I have been reading all I can about building a guitar now for about a year and have been watching DVDs, Youtube etc and now it is time to see what happens.

I have been woodcarving doing female busts and Northwest triditional art for many years so some of the tools will be familiar. I am looking forward to carving the neck because I want to know how it is different from carving a face where the left side and the right side should be the same or close at least or where a Northwest mask must match from left to right.

So, while I might live to regret my thinking, I decided I didn't want a kit because I wanted to build the jigs and the guitar from scratch even if it takes me a long time and i end up actually building or carving some parts more times than I wish. My goal is to build many more than one guitar as I have grand kids and kids that play and I want them to have something I have done. Some have woodcarving on display in their homes but a guitar that actually plays would be something that I would like to give them.

Chuck

I went the with a kit from John Hall and I've not regretted it a single moment.

Some thing to consider:

- There are a lot of jigs to build even if you buy a kit. How long do you want your first build to take? I bought a kit and still had to make or buy a cabinet to build on and store my kit and tools, a go-bar deck that mounts on the cabinet, a mold, a circle cutting jig, a jig to cut binding/purfling channels, radius dishes, etc. That is a lot of time building jigs instead of building a guitar.

- Some tools/jigs cost more than others. One reason I went with a kit is I didn't want to buy or build a side bending machine right off the bat.......and I'm glad I made that decision. Nice guitar wood is expensive so a side bender would add significantly to initial costs to get started and there was a decent chance I could mess up the sides till I got the hang of things. A year into it now after reading online forums and I know 10 times more about what kind of bending jig I would like to have and it's gave me a chance to pick up ophaned sides on the cheap to practice on when I do have a side bender.

- I didn't want to learn to carve a neck on my first build. Even Martin starts with a CNC'd neck so it doesn't bother me to start with one either. If I could work with a local, knowledgeable luthier like many of the good folks here, that would be different.

- How much is it worth to have someone to call and discuss how to do something you don't completely understand? If you buy from John Hall he is a phone call away and he's amazingly patient and helpful.

I didn't have a planer, nor a thickness sander (though I have one now), nor a side bender (or bending pipe), nor a bandsaw (though I do now) when I started. Put it all together and I'm happy I started with a kit.

Oh, another point. I descibed the tone I wanted to John and we discussed changes to achieve that tone. So I learned a lot right there by seeing how an experience luthier layed out the X brace angle, wood choice suggestions, bridge/bridge plate selection and shape, thickness of bracing, etc. to push the tone in the direction I wanted to go.......and it cost me nothing extra. How much was that worth?

John sells Martin kits or he will custom make a kit for you. I went with a custom kit. I think he can do a koa kit as well (personally, I like more bass than you can get from a koa top so I prefer spruce).

Edit to add: Even though I'm using a kit, I still shaped all the bracing, changed the back thickness, and changed the soundhole diameter no different than a scratch build so I still had that learning experience. I probably won't carve a neck on my next build either so new experinces on the next build will be bending the sides, joining the top/back, and inlaying the rosette.

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A mold is a negative of the guitar shape that holds things in their proper place while you join the sides, apply kerfed linings, and attach tops and backs.

The fellow above going for the scratch build reminds me of me. But I stil bought a kit while at the same time I built all of the major jigs (bender, binding channel cutter, etc)

I had a PM that highlighted that its possible that my post could be misinterpreted as there being no value in starting with a kit... this is obviously not the case and kits will inevitably mean that early builds can be done with minimal tools and with less investment and so allow a new builder to experience the process but without having to 'learn everything at once' - so to be clear I have no issue with kits or their usefulness.

However, Like all opinion its simply based on experience - in my case - I build from scratch using reasonable woods, because 1) I was hugely influenced by the challenge and philosophy that is actively encouraged by the Kinkade book, 2) at the time I naively thought I was only ever going to build one - so to me that meant the whole thing, and 3) because I would have access to a pro shop so tools were not an issue and I would also be able to ask questions and seek advice from the shops owner and friend... so I had a HUGE advantage...

But I do stand by the opinion that scratch has advantages over kits, because the learning process is extended to cover all aspects of the build which eventually everyone has to do anyway - and the earlier you start...?

It was also an amazing experience - sure it takes a huge amount of patience, can be daunting when you start on that neck joint or carving the profile, but wow! how fulfilling... Sure you make mistakes, and nothing is perfect, but as most will say thats not the point with these early instruments. Its about discovery, and learning and for me there was something amazing in first picking up that spoke shave and placing it on that mahogany block - a daunting and nerve tingling feeling which meant small tiny bits of wood removed at first and then bolder cuts as confidence grew... I would just add, that it was far from perfect, it caused frustration and a few choice words/expletives were probably uttered ... but instead of being disheartening, it was inspiring - it only hardeded teh resolve to improve the next, and the next etc - Its still very early days, but I think I am improving and the fun just multiplies with each tiny step forward, despite the steps back that keep your feet on the ground (and from which you arguably learn more from).

I am not giving advice on this, merely an opinion, and IMHO, its was such a great experience, despite the cussing moments that I would do it again if I had that time again...

I would agree with the above, but with the caveat that there are advantages to both!

Re. Point 4. I have no hesitation in agreeing with this, because being able to ask questions directly as you go along on techniques and get expert advice is invaluable.

I would add this though - before starting either option, there ios a huge amount of 'research' you can do. I would say i had an additional advantage in that as a player with an interest in the construction and history of guitars for over 20 years, I had read ahuge amount on woods, bracing, effects of different combinations of woods, tap tuning and a huge amount on various theories of construction which does provide a good basis is starting out with a 'from scratch approach' . Its like all things, teh more you can learn /read/get advice on before you start, the more chance of relative success you will have.

Re point 2. The full shop... yes its true but my 'slave driver' Insisted everything was done by hand so a few planes and decent chisels covered 95% of the tools used... a tough introduction, but very rewarding even when I cursed him under my breath as the blisters formed on my thumbs from scraping those sides...

Joey,
You seem to have the interest and availabilty of equipment, but it may be time to slow down on the planning and pick up on the research.
Have ya gone through any books or DVD`s?

Your query as to what a mold is gave it away.

Go for the scratch build if you have the woodworking experience (of which only we can be sure of ourselves).
Keep it cheap on cost.
Walnut B&S with Spruce top worked (and still does) for me. This is cheap if you watch what you buy.
Don`t skimp on the FB.
Hardware depends on what you want to pay in cash (You`ll need more, or have to save for it).

BUT FIRST...
Get some books, start reading ( most highly reccomended).
If you do the DVD thing, insert disc, press play.
Lots and lots of info out there in the e-world, too.
Sit back and take it all in (but not too deep).

Just a helpful suggestion.

Coe Franklin

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Hey thank you for the heads up!!! Ya I understand the importance of research! and trust me im going crazy with it : )...if you read my link that i posted, it tells you a little about what I have already done...I have the Guitar Making book, that is very commonly used...I would love more recommendations for books! People already have made some, but I would love to hear your prefrence on the best books...