Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:35 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:29 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 181
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Came across a picture of a spline neck joint today, never saw one before, and was curious how you perform a reset on one of these with an elevated fretboard. Not much information when I did a search here, so I take it not many people use them?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:43 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3552
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I hadn't seen one before either, but if the pictures I found are the same ones you found, then it doesn't seem to be designed to separate. So I guess the reset procedure is heel slip like an integral neck.

Unfortunate because if you just made the slot a little deeper than the spline and positioned so the end of it is under a fret, you could inject steam like with a dovetail.

Have you tried to contact the builder of the guitar to ask if they had a reset procedure in mind when they made it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:02 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Looks like a very weak joint system to me.... Treat it like a doweled neck and convert to bolt on.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:25 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
No practical experience here, but looking at it from a woodworking point of view - you could saw off the neck with an oscillating tool (or other thin bladed saw), rout out the old splines, fix the neck angle, then replace the splines. I read Robert Ruck and some other classical makers use splines to attach the neck. Most classical guitars don't make provisions for neck resets, and with the lower tension of the strings need resets less often than steel string guitars. When they do, sawing off the neck and splining it back on with a biscuit jointer might not be a bad way to go, and make the repair less obvious than making it a bolt on.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:38 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:42 pm
Posts: 682
Location: United States
First name: Tom
Last Name: Rein
City: Saline
State: Michigan
Focus: Build
Clay has it right. Spline joint is quite common with classicals, which should never need a neck set if made properly. I have to respectfully disagree with Brian. When properly done it is a very strong joint. It would be foolish to use it with steel strings, however.
If a spline jointed (or Spanish heel) classical showed the signs of needing a neck set (high action and no saddle height left) I would be more inclined to remove the fingerboard, add a tapered slip of wood the same type as the neck, and recarve the back of the neck to compensate for the added thickness. As I said, this should not be necessary if the guitar was built properly from the start. I did this once on a Ramirez from the 70s. Ridiculously high action with baseball bat neck. The procedure cured two problems. Yes, the originality was sacrificed but the guitar remained in circulation rather than being stuffed in a closet, which is where it was headed due to complete unplayability.

_________________
Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:29 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 181
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Yes, did a little more research last night, and it does appear these are used on classical guitars only and it's expected the guitar will never need a reset. However, this poses an interesting situation:

https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... fedda91693


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:16 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
Posts: 102
Location: San Diego CA
I use spline joints to attach necks on my classical. Many big names do this too. It was used in Japan in the 70s, and brought to the US by Brune and Ruck. It has since adopted by many other builders.

My splines end under the 13th fret on the body side of the spline. Drill through the pulled 13th fret and inject steam to pull it apart, just like a dovetail. Only pull out instead of up. But it should not need to be done with nylon string tension and proper neck material selection.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:34 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 181
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Paul, are you building with an elevated fretboard as well?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
Posts: 102
Location: San Diego CA
Not yet. I'm working on the first elevated fingerboard guitar now. I may have to abandon the spline joint as I'm having troubles figuring out the steps to do it. That little change in geometry of the elevated FB really throws a wrench in my build process.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:53 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Aside from making the guitar more difficult to build, what is the advantage of the elevated fretboard?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:09 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
Posts: 102
Location: San Diego CA
It does provide easier access to frets 14 and above on a 12 fret body joint classical guitar. The market generally frowns on cutaways, so this is a feature some players find beneficial. It's really difficult to sell a nylon string guitar with a cutaway.



These users thanked the author Paul Micheletti for the post: Clay S. (Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:04 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:23 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2931
Location: United States
Paul, you can still use a spline joint if you make the extension a separate piece. I've done it by cutting the slot for the spline into the heel of the neck first then create a rabbet for the fb extension on the neck blank back to the 11th fret or so. Attach you extension and proceed as normal. You now have a neck with an extension and a slot for the spline. Similar to doing an archtop neck.
I don't know if that's of any value to you, but thought I'd throw it out there for consideration.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:27 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:59 pm
Posts: 102
Location: San Diego CA
Thanks Jim. I wish to have a single long neck piece that is both glued down to the top and glued to the fingerboard extension. The more solid that I make the fingerboard extension, the better the high notes sound up to the partial 20th fret.

I did some finishing repair on an older Greg Byers guitar, and he used a separate fingerboard support on that guitar as you describe. Since those early elevated fingerboard guitars, he moved to having an integral extension. But he builds on solera, so that's an entirely different build process. I may move that way too if I can't figure out how to do a reliable spline attach on an integral extension. But I'm not giving up yet.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:14 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Posts: 181
First name: Darren
Last Name: Figgs
State: California
Zip/Postal Code: 94519
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Paul, could you explain this "integral extension" a bit further? I'm trying to visual how this is done.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:24 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Hi Paul,
You might be able to use a slot cutting bit to cut the mortice for the spline with an integral extension neck. Most of the photo's show the bearing below the slot cutter, but you could place it above the cutter to "extend" the shaft length if necessary. The cut could be carried up into the integral extension (even if the spline is not) as the mortice would be hidden when the neck is joined to the body. The mortice could be carried down through the heel if a cap will later cover it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:48 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
found one.
https://www.toolstoday.com/v-10663-270- ... tdEALw_wcB


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Duct Tape, wbergman and 63 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com