Official Luthiers Forum!

Recently one of our friends here in a thread described my response as a "smack down" and although I completely understand that this was offered a bit jokingly it did get me thinking. It's my hope that when I try to help folks here that I am not coming across as smacking anyone down, that's not my objective and I am actually a bit horrified that I may be coming across this way. I'll be 65 next month and maybe I'm gettin crabby and don't know it.

I can tell you what my intent here is and why but I do realize that how I'm perceived is a function of how the reader wishes to consider what I offer as well.

Around 2005 we had Mario P. and Rick Turner here, Howard Klepper as well and a few others and the view of the trade and market was in my view more realistic than it was or is today. Rick, one of my mentors would tell us here that if we did not learn to do repair work we were just building model airplane kits and "GLOs" or "guitar like objects...." If you find this rather insulting I did too but you know what else? Rick as absolutely correct.

So look I'm here to help like those who helped me before and I consider this as a debt that I have to pay again because I was fortunate enough to have been helped by strangers on the Internet and set straight on the path to becoming a professional, working in the trade full time Luthier.

I do hope that I don't come across as punitive or a jerk that would make me sad to learn. I will add that there has always been a conflict here on this forum between the hobbyist and the pro in that we pros are not looking for anything in return and in my case we didn't take any new business in for nine months recently and don't accept shipped in business so again there is nothing in this for me beyond the tradition of sharing and helping on the OLF.

With all this said if I offended you please accept my sincere apology and more importantly if I can help you please do not hesitate to contact me here.

If I have not offended you I'll just have to try harder

PS: You guys have Chris Pile and he is exactly the ole school curmudgeon sort that we had here in 2005. Listen to him, hear him he knows his **** AND will tell it to you straight.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

As someone who is 1/3 of the way to making a living at this stuff, with a desire to keep going full steam ahead at the remaining 2/3rds, I welcome any and all reality checks, slap downs, smack downs and wake up calls… it all helps me improve

Others may differ Hesh but without you, Chris and all the other pros weighing in, I wouldn’t have a reason to come here…

I may have mellow days, but being a curmudgeon works best for me. It's my natural state. I don't cut my clients any slack, either. If they are stupid, I say so - and explain in detail HOW they are stupid. I can't remember anyone who was offended for long. And I don't apologize because it's not a sin to be offensive. Despite the current political climate of cultural stupidity, being offended is not the same as being injured. Facts don't care about your feelings, truth wins out in the end - ugly or not.

Local OLF'rs know I'm harmless. So do my clients. I have one who relishes the moments when I get wound up. He eggs me on frequently... "Roar you old lion, roar!".

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Well I appreciate the hell out of you man and I hope to meet you and shake your hand, elbow bump one days and I'm buying. I hope that your dad is doing great too.

Ain't that the truth about setting clients straight too. As soon as we hear them say "I read on the Internet" our smack down begins.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

It's funny that they say you catch more flies with honey. Fly's like S^#t too.

Well I’m very much like you Hesh in that I retired from my day job (which I loved) after 35 years to finally pursue my lifelong passion, so I know how it feels to have such an amount of passion for the stuff boiling inside! Anyone who feels really strong about the work and art tends tends to be a fast shooter and I know I can too.

You "old" pros have a lot to offer and I for one am immensely grateful to you, Chris, the "Johns", Dan, Frank and all the others that have helped me without any real reward along the way.

Thanks again and please don't think about walking away once more…


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse

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Pierre Castonguay

Clients get the truth in my shop too, whether they want it or not.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

There's always something to learn. Sometimes one has to learn how to learn too. I've learned alot from being on here and just being open to learn something new really is a mindset that you have to have.

Everyone on here is appreciated in my book. In the wide world of craftsmanship you need cranky old men as well as the young eager bucks to do the work.

Like the old saying goes how do you get to Carnegie Hall - practice!
I’ve been in this game for 45 years now and like a bunch of other folks here I just retired from my day job andI am now full-time but even before that I was full-time basically it was my second job.
There’s no substitute for doing it over and over and over again for the last three years I’m back into repair work now and constantly doing it every day.
My partner I do everything from neck resets fret jobs, structural work, refinishing,etc. etc.
The trick is to get yourself into a position where you have a steady work coming in and that comes down to reputation.
Don’t ever let anything leave your shop that you’re not completely proud of that’s probably the most important thing I can think of


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, in the spirit of tellin' it like it is . . .

I think the folks on here are great, and way better at being civil to each other than you see on other fora. And Hesh (not to exclude anybody, but Hesh started this thread), I greatly value your wisdom. Seriously.

But . . .

If there was one thing I would say to the curmudgeons (and I count myself as being one of them, at age 57), it is that there is a big difference between two ways of expressing yourself on a topic about which you know a lot, and about which you have strong feelings.

You can say what you think is the right way to do something, and you can bolster that view by talking about your experience level. "I do this a lot, and here is how I think it should be done." You can even say that you disagree with the people who do it differently.

Or, you can go that extra step and say what you think is the right way to do something, bolster that view by talking about your experience level, then go on to say that anybody who disagrees with you is a &%$#@ moron.

Maybe we can all try harder to not do the second thing. I'm not accusing anyone in particular of doing it, and I won't cite any examples. And for Pete's sake, don't think I'm offended by it. I'm a lawyer; people call me names on a weekly basis. I'm just saying it tends to stifle the kind of learning you want people to do here.

The drill sergeant approach to teaching is really not a great way to teach; it is much better at weeding out people who can't deal with adversity. Whether it is basic training in the military, or the first year of law school, or a medical residency, we make it unreasonably hard because we don't want people in those jobs who are going to fold under pressure.

If you want to weed out the folks who can't take it, then be a drill sergeant. If you want to actually teach, handle things differently.

There endeth my own curmudgeonly rant.

I also appreciate the $h1t out of you Hesh, and all the pros who are here. Dave Farmer once told me that for a pro the OLF is “all for sport”, not getting anything in return. Maybe paying a debt, as you said.

In the spirit of telling it like it is… I don’t do that enough and will work on it. Thanks for the reminder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I have been building seriously for 17 years. Don’t know if that makes me a “pro” but I have a fair amount of experience.

I monitor the OLF almost every day or two. I still frequently see stuff that changes or modifies my process.

It has been amazingly civil around here for quite a while compared to ancient times. Keep it up folks!

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Don I appreciate your remarks but we can disagree civilly here and that's what I am going to do with you.

I'm not really aware of examples of what you cite where someone calls someone else a name because they do something differently. Have I ever done this? I'm NOT getting defensive but I wonder where this remark came from I am not aware of any name calling on this forum nor would I want to see that kind of thing.

I'm straining my little mind to to think of any name calling here and I just can't think of a single example.

I'll offer something as well. I had the burden.... of being the first ever moderator of the OLF.... back in the day. This forum cannot be moderated and arguably it does not need moderation in it's present iteration and with this present group in my opinion AND experience.

When I was moderator we had someone suggest using sperm as pore filler and I had to talk to them about it (I'm still laughing over this one) but never any name calling. True story.

Not looking to get this off track either, my intent was to let it be known that it is not my intent to smack down anyone but to be helpful.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Hesh—

There was a part of my post where I said I would not cite any examples. Moreover, please don’t take what I said so literally (as in: narrowly defined to the one insult I used as an example). My point is that there is a line that sometimes gets crossed by people who have strong feelings and are certain they are right. Disagreeing is one thing; stating your position with vigor is expected. But there are times when people with strong feelings go the extra step of belittling the people who don’t hold that view. It doesn’t happen here as much as it does other places, and I am very thankful for that. But it does happen sometimes. I’m just saying that we curmudgeons can try just a little harder to not do that, because we do slip into it, on rare occasion.

Well I certainly appreciate you and your remarks Don but again I don't see what you are describing happening here at least to any degree that it's a problem. I don't agree that we can have an expectation that the presentation of others, what they wish to share and how they present can be groomed or should be moderated for others beyond the typical OLF's few rules. What I see now is perhaps as good as it gets but not ideal and I will get into that in a moment.

What I didn't get back in 2005 was when someone who has a life time of experience finds themselves in an argument with someone with no experience and it goes south only one party has professional credentials and even investments in a business and trade on the line. This was always one of the unfair things here that a person who feeds our families (my family is 35 guitars..) from the living we make with Lutherie can be hurt economically as the result of a google search that turns up this forum.

By 2009 we had lost most of the people who we wanted to hear from the very most or at least I did. Mario and Rick had booked likely because people like me with thin skin did not at least meet them half way. I'm sorry for this, was then and still am. In my view now the OLF would have been a better forum if we not only valued civility but we valued professional experience at the same value level as civility.

Does this mean that the pro has the right to tell the new to get stuffed? No of course not but the discourse between the two was never on an equal level to begin with and both parties should always endeavor to be more respectful if it gets to that.

When I help someone reset a neck on a bolt on Martin there is nothing in this for me. It's all risk and exposure that someone looking to argue has things nicely teed up for them....to attack and flame the pro.

So I went out and surveyed the pro Luthiers who were registered, had been here and were no longer participating. This was a couple dozen people back then and I did post about what I was doing and the results.

90% said they left because the newbs could flame them on an Internet forum and it could harm their ability to feed their family and there was no recourse for them....

Ultimately it's up to every forum to decide what they want to be when they grow up. Do they value expertise and information above all or is civility and presentation more important. As for me I value both, will always value both and freely admit that I was wrong on this one. I'm wrong a lot and pretty good at being wrong it seems

I will always wish for and hope that more of the folks who work in the trade will find this a great place to have some fun and waste some time

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Ann Arbor Guitars

All I can say is. The truth hurts , but it will set you free.

One way to help identify who's a pro at the trade and who's not might be to ask the pros to add the name of their shop and their own real name to their signature. I'm using "pro" loosely because I now know many have been doing this for a very long time part-time in addition to their day-jobs. Take it to mean "people with experience to share", which in itself is not very clear, I know.

In time we learn who's who here, but it takes a lot of reading and cross-referencing discussions between some of the people who do know each other on personal or professional levels. I have been reading here for many years and I am now more familiar with some names and user IDs. But I believe if I saw the name of a pro shop up front I could check out it’d readily confer some recognition to someone's pedigree.

But what do I know, it might have been tried in the past and been considered inappropriate by some. What's your opinion on this?


Pierre
Guitares Torvisse

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Pierre Castonguay

This is a great place to learn, help and share. It is the best spot for such On the internet (that I am aware of). I’m very thankful to have found this place and MIMF years ago; most of what I am able to do in this hobby is because of these two resources. I’m grateful for all the pro/veteran folk who have been here along the way. I’m also thankful for all the newbies who keep the questions coming spurring discussions that I learn from. I’m thankful to all the folks I between too!

I miss may of the veteran types like Mario who have helped me along the way and would like to keep the ones who are still here. I have reached out to several in PMs and gotten a lot of great advice. I recognize that there isn’t much in it for them other than to be helpful. I imagine answering the same basic questions over and over again is annoying. I often hesitate to answer because I know there are more experienced answers a available. I try to resist that urge so that the pros aren’t stuck doing everything. I always try to answer only from my experience and indicate my hobby status. The great thing is that people with more experience and wisdoms will come along to add to what I have said or correct me when I’m wrong. I value those corrections because we all learn and/or a deeper discussion will develop.

This place has mostly been civil. Way better than other internet fora!

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I believe that if a person keeps an open mind he can learn something from anyone - the most erudite professional to the village idiot. However, the people who truly have my respect are those who impart their knowledge in a civil manner and show at least a modicum of respect to the other person.
I can understand how some professionals prefer to post under a pseudonym and find it difficult to "suffer fools gladly" when being attacked by the unwashed and unanointed, and I don't blame them for that, but then there are those who throw down the gauntlet first and use their "credentials" to help them carry the fight. Thankfully, they are few and far between on this forum.

This reminds me of "Free Your Mind And Your Arse Will Follow" by the Funkadelics. Remember them? . Hope you are doing great Ernie!!

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Chris you'r just like any old Tool Maker from the aircraft industry. After awhile you get tired of the BS and learn to speak up.

And Hesh, Thanks for all the info that you and Chris share but I am a little offended that you haven't offended me yet. Uh wait maybe not. never mind

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

Wanna talk about politics . JUST KIDDING..... I hope you are doing great Dave!!!!

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Well you asked Hesh...

I came to this forum around 2009 or so. I lurked here for a couple of years before I made a post.

I have been working on guitars since I was about 9 years old because my family didn't have much money I found guitars I could fix because I wanted to learn how to play. I went on to be pretty much self taught and learned on junk guitars graduating to better and better instruments. Up until a couple of years ago I was doing repair work and charging for it so I call myself a Semi-Pro. I certainly didn't make a living at it but I do have a lot of experience (I just recently turned 68 so that is a few years).

Somehow, you decided that I had no idea what I was doing and every time I posted anything you would follow me up telling my how wrong I was (you can search for post that will show you did that). One of the last "issues" I had with you was on a topic that I had just answered someone to offer help. You told me I didn't know what I was talking about and when I sent you an email about it you had some very ugly things to say to me .

My response to that was to PM Lance and let him know I would no longer be giving any money to support the forum since I didn't feel welcome here.

I went back to just lurking for fear of getting in your way.

I have nothing but respect for most of the people on this forum and even after our "altercation" I do respect your knowledge.
I have no idea why you chose to "run me off the forum" but I suspect because I have no formal training you consider I don't know what I am doing.

I never left the forum and follow it quite closely, you just got me to stop posting.

So... You asked...

I don't hold grudges with people and I still read your (long winded) posts, this one I just happen to reply to because you asked.

Cheers,
Bob

Well I hope that your health problems have been resolved in a manner that helps you feel better Bob.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

@Hesh
Thanks for the post, my health issues were mostly from the meds I was taking, as soon as I stopped the meds I started getting better. It was almost 3 years of feeling like a zombie but I am now back to good.

Just so you know, I do not hold grudges against anyone. I would like our relationship to be better but as far as I can see there isn't much I can do about how you feel about me so I just went back to lurking. I still have no idea what sparked this so I can only assume why. This is something that should be handled in PM's or in person which i have no problem doing so if you have an interest in repairing our situation just send me a PM.


With that, I do want to say that this forum and the people here have helped me a lot. Even just lurking I learn new things all the time. I am not one to ask a lot of questions since most of the answers are here for the searching.

So, I am more than willing to resolve our issue and would be happy to swing over to your shop and have a cup of coffee with you.

Cheers,
Bob